LeighSimmsMA

I never really thought about this either! But when looking at kata applications I usually ask myself the following question before all others - How do I use all the components of the kata move (striking hand, no striking hand, stance etc..) to keep me safe from harm against an opponent. I guess I think about Itosu when he said karate is a way of using the hands and feet to avoid injury when one is confronted by a villian or ruffian.

This could well be true, but that doesn't change the fact the kata he was taught had bunkai to them. Without getting into semantics, Suzuki clearly demonstrated "kata applications". I hoping this whole thing has not been a misunderstanding on my behalf and what I mean by bunkai and what others mean. To be clear by Bunkai I mean "kata applications performed with a partner". Yes, I know bunkai doesn't technically mean that, but it is universally known as such. Not at all, but we shouldn't say something never existed just because we chose not to train it. Of course not, the point I was making was that the kata have practical applications and are not just there for teaching “movement”. I disagree. To answer simply, my kihon has legs movements (and the same movements as the kata) because those movements have practical applications. The different stances show how to put weight into a technique or how to disrupt and break the opponents posture. Everything I do, I have a direct practical application for. The point I was trying to make is that approach taken by Davis does not (at least to me) explain why the kata movements are exactly the way they are and not any other way. I will discuss this below in more detail when I get to Davis Bassai Dai Application. I agree that timing and distancing are two skills that vary person to person and need to be developed and kata cannot do that! That is why I can’t fathom how kata viewed at as teaching movements can develop fighting skill! If you are talking about kata as being just the solo form I agree it is not meant to be giving you the skills for a realistic situation This is why live practice is needed. I see kata as a process - Learn the Kata form - Learn the 2 Person Drill for the movements in the form (what I call bunkai) - Learn the principles that make the application work - Practice those principles in a live environment Kata in of itself, is a way of recording the physical techniques in a solo form and on their own they are not enough. What I fail to agree with you is that by looking at kata in this way you are contradicting all the historical evidence that kata have directly applicable applications. Secondly, in my view of the first move of the kata (which I think is best to video record and upload here for clarity) uses all the motions of the kata – the footwork, direction, hand positions etc.. Everything has a purpose that is needed to make the technique work. What I fail to grasp is if the kata is showing how to lowers one body to gain stability, why are the hand positions the way they are, why is one closed and open, why do they start to the side and swing across, why does the foot movement project forward and not straight downwards, why are the feet crossed. If all you are doing is to drop down to recoil energy, why is it recorded in the way it is and not some other way? (I think there would be more direct and efficient ways to achieve your outcome). Secondly, even if you were right, I do not see how practicing the kata (and in specific this motion) will develop physical fighting skill. I see no link here what so ever. My approach outlined above in response to Melbourne’s comment, clearly shows a logical approach in which the applications of the kata when practiced and the principles understood can then be used directly and indirectly in live practice to create physical combative skill.

Hi Davis, thanks for your reply and it seems like Karate has been a very important and inspiring part of your life! Like I said earlier, I have no issues and I don't think anyone should have with your karate and how you decide to view karate. My main disagreement with you is what bunkai is. You said "bunkai is real", am I to think that you agree that kata have bunkai in the sense of actual fighting techniques, but you don't believe they would work in a real fight? Or do you mean something else? What I find interesting about Wado People who say their Kata dont have bunkai, is that the Kata were around long before the style of Wado came about. The Kata were created with applications (the historically evidence confirms this). Additionally, Otsukas Karate instructors all have made written reference to bunaki in kata. For example both Mabuni and Motobu write about moving to angles in kata represent the angle to move against the opponent. Additionally, there are many of Otsuka's students who have demontrated kata applications. Tatsuo Suzuki 8th Dan (taught by Otsuka) for instance produced a DVD that showed bunkai to certain kata (although I dont necessarily agree with his applications, it never the less provides evidence that the bunkai was part of Wado training). I always interpreted that quote to mean that the forms teach applications in a certain order and once they have been learned, we should go beyond the confines of the kata and use the principles that the techniques teach. By doing this you will "create/rediscover" many other techniques that whilst may not look like the movements in the kata, will still be effective in real combat. In essence, instead of treating kata like a bag of tricks that can be only be used in one order - understand how (ie the principles of the technique) he applications work and this will create many more practical techniques that can be used in real combat.

Hi Pers! I like your comment and it seems like we have very similar kata practices. The Heians, then Tekki Shodan and then Kanku Dai. Interestingly, I have taught Kanku Dai and Tekki Shodan to students who I have limited time with (due to their locations overseas). I have noticed that they have not in any way suffered from not knowing the Heian Kata first. In some ways it is easier for them to learn one longer kata (Kanku Dai) than the 5 smaller forms.

Firstly, I Think that this thread (although maybe it needs a new topic for this) has opened lots to discuss and Davis last post brings up some interesting questions! . I think this a fair view on the subject and your karate is yours. Where we disagree is what kata teach. I see clear a logical approach of recording fighting techniques in a solo form that can be practiced when there is no partner to train with. The evidence is overwhelming for this. Funakoshi in Karate-Do Kyohan demonstrates a number of throws and then writes that these can be found in some of the basic kata. This is just one of many examples I can point too in which kata movements are shown to be practical fighting techniques. What I see no evidence of is that all kata teaches is movements. I am also interested to see why the movements of each kata are chosen above other movements. When looking at kata as recording fighting techniques, all the data adds up. There is a reason for the stance used, the hand motions and positions etc... I would like to see, from your view of teaching motions, why the movements of the kata are the way they are and not any other way.

I don't agree with this on many levels. I think our view on what bunkai is maybe different. The idea of Bunkai, at least to me, is that it teaches realistic combative fighting principles by way of realistic combative techniques. For example, the gedan barai (low block) in Tekki Shodan/Naihanchi is clearly explained to be an arm bar by Gichin Funakoshi. Whilst it is important to develop skill with that technique in static and then live training, you must also develop the principles relating to that technique too. Especially when training in live-based sparring as you might not be able to perform the technique exactly, however you can still use the principles learned from them. I cannot see how practicing just the solo kata gives you the skill (of timing and distance) to move your body effectively in a real confrontation. And even if it did, then why do kata have arm movements? If the kata shows an age uke or a gyaku zuki or a manji uke, why does it matter? why are there hand motions in the kata at al if all the kata are about is moving the body?

Hi Davis, Can you give me any evidence that bunkai is about knowing how to move?

This interesting because in the past one kata was an entire style! It then went on to being a couple of kata per style. I remember Funakoshi once writing that a master would know around 3-5 kata. That being said, in my teachings I have the Heian/Pinan Series, Naihanchi/Tekki Shodan and Kanku Dai/Kusanku as the kata to 1st Dan. I think all the Heians as a collection represent my teachings as well as Kanku Dai and Naihanchi. So if im allowed to chose the Heians as one kata, I chose that. If not then Kanku Dai is my choice - trapping, locking, throwing, anti-grappling, clinching, kicking, punching and alternate methods of striking all recorded!

Hi Guys, I have never met Mark in person, but I do believe I have spoke with him on a number of occasions on facebook and we do have similar thoughts about a lot in the martial arts. By luck, I recorded some footage of me drilling some Jion applications and how I train bunkai in my group (starting from non-contextual drilling and moving onto drilling the principles in live practice). If I am reading Marks post correctly, it seems like we have similar views on this kata too! Below is a description of applications for the first two movements of the kata- Application 1 – Jion Yoi Principle 1 – control the head and strike the jaw The first movement of the kata can show one way in which to control the attacker. The defender uses his right hand to grip the hair of the attacker. (if there is no hair, an alternative is to place the hand on the back of the attacker’s head). Once the hair is gripped the defender pulls his elbow towards the ground and pulls the attacker hair to the side. At the same time, the defender uses his left hand to impact the jaw. Principle 2 – Where the body goes the head will follow After the strike, the defenders left hand has now control of the jaw and the right hand still has the back of the head located. From there the attacker can be manipulated and moved around or down to the ground, as long as the defender keeps control of the attackers head. You could drill the “grab and strike” and the “control and twist” as two separate motions. However, the controlling of the head is a very logical thing to do if the initial strike has not incapacitated the attacker enough for an escape to be available. Application 2 – Zenkustu Dachi, Ude Uke/Gedan Barai Principle 3 – Break free from a vertical clinch by bringing your arms inside and/or on top of the attackers (2 arm scenario) The second movement of the kata is a motion where one arm risings up in an outwards circle and one arms drops down in a similar circular motion. During the initial stages of the fight it maybe difficult to locate the back of the opponent’s head (as described in Principles 1 & 2), this can occur for a number of reasons. The primary reason is that the attackers arms prevent a pathway for the defender to reach his taget. In order to reach the attackers head, the defender will need to ensure his arms are either on the inside of the attackers and/or on top of the attackers. If the attacker manages to get his arms in these positions it will make the defenders mission difficult to accomplish. Here the kata shows two ways in which the arms can be cleared. To demonstrate this, the attacker has the defender gripped in a clinch where his arms are both on the inside and above the attackers. Simultaneously, the defender uses the backward step of the kata to create a little bit of distance and drops uses gedan barai motion to clear the attackers left arm whilst using the ude uke motion to clear the attackers right arm. Now the defender has his arms either on the inside or above the attackers and can go back to using principles 1 and/or 2. How I practice bunkai application: Practice Application 1 from basic position with no resistance Practice Application 1 within specific scenarios (in order to adapt the technique to apply the principle(s)) Practice Application 1 with specific scenarios (increasing resistance to pressure test skill of principles learned) Repeat with Application 2 Repeat by combining Application 1 and 2 i.e. defender will start by trying to seize the head of the opponent. The attacker will counter by controlling the defenders arms. The defender will need to break free from the clinch and locate the attackers head to locate and strike/twist. Here is a video link to the practices described above! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuKerBynjsM&feature=youtu.be (edited post to update link above as video on youtube has been re-edited) I hope it is of value in showing how Jion can be a complete fighting system!