Mark B

Hi Pers, I write this post with all due respect, but you seem to have an obsession with syllabus and grade. Kusanku, Passai etc are only "brown belt kata " if that's how a particular syllabus is structured. In Wado for example Passai is often a kata for Nidan. A student could learn Kusanku rather than the Pinan, and spend 3-4 years doing it. That is, in fact, the way it was done in the old days. As it happens, Naihanchi was often the first form learned, although Seisan was also the first form learned. Syllabus was, and is, a modern creation

Hi DaveB, you're absolutely right. If a person chooses to learn all the kata they possibly can, then practice elaborate Bunkai to karate style attacks then that is their business, and I certainly have no right to tell people how to train. However, , there is loads of documented info that directs us towards the preferred approach to centreing our training around kata. I do concede that there are many ways to train, and many reasons too, and I guess each is as valid as the next, but if we enter a dojo, practice karate around deep study of a few kata as a GENUINE system for self defence then I personally think it can be a little bit dangerous if we're not able to be honest with ourselves (and our students), if that's not your goal then that is, of course perfectly fine

Nothing. As I've said on numerous occasions kata are systems in, and of themselves. You don't learn the Pinan series as a precursor to learning Kusanku. You don't learn Passai and Seisan to feed into Chinto. you don't learn Naihanchi to feed into Seisan. you don't learn Jion, or any other form as a means of learning basics (which has been suggested elsewhere on this forum). The kata existed long before style or syllabus and should be seen as the physical recording of the main preferences, principles and ideas of the fighting style of the person (s) to which that particular kata relates. As I think I demonstrated on the Jion thread what we're talking about here is practicing a given kata, Kusanku in this conversation, to a level of unconscious competence that will take years of diligent study. Learning the form itself is easy! The hard (but fun) part is extracting the information, creating drills for all the possibilities -all the striking options, takedowns and throws, pushing, sticking and trapping exercises, seizing, joint attacks and locks, targeting vulnerable areas- then you have to drill problem solving, what ifs etc and that list is long !!! You're then gonna need to raise the level of all these drills, applications and exercises to a point where they're fit for actual combat of the most serious nature. Learning a kata, then motoring through a set of Bunkai exercises with a fairly compliant partner is not "knowing" a kata. We're all on this path, which is long and demanding. I think it would be made much easier if people can understand what is meant by "studying "a kata all the best.

My daughter is 12, and has been training with me since the age of 9. I have no problem at all, in fact my niece and nephew also train in my junior class. All three are doing great, better than that in fact, they're three of my standout students. On the day of this post my daughter graded to junior 2nd kyu . Her grading was of the highest order (and my junior syllabus is tough). One thing I would say, I almost expect more from her then the others, although I do try and treat all the students equally. I enjoy teaching her, and look forward to the future training when she's old enough to move into my senior class.

REGAIN LOST INITIATIVE. What do I mean by that ? I don't personally apply kata as a pre-emptive system. In a proper, civilian confrontation the aim should be to deliver YOUR preferred impact option (for me, Shotai Uchi ). In the first instance we don't try to batter with kata. We use our primary impact weapons at this stage. The applications of kata become relevant /appropriate when , for whatever reason, initiative is lost. Maybe your technique wasn't as effective as intended, the opponent covered, maybe he flinched to spoil, there are lots of "what ifs ". If the opponent re engages there's a strong chance the range will descend into grappling. Yes, kata can teach takedowns, limb destruction but it's primary purpose is to REGAIN LOST INITIATIVE, to once again create an opportunity to deliver your primary impact options if possible. Of course you may have to deliver impact using other striking options but the principle is the same - get back to striking ASAP. I personally think there is too much emphasis on trying to lock , takedown etc. Greater emphasis should be placed on striking options. Fighting for real you want the initiative, lose it - you want it back, in the simplest, most efficient and most direct method possible

Seisan is a significant form. There's strong evidence of lineage to Fujian White Crane and it's the only form on Okinawa that can be find in Shuri, Naha and Tomari lineages. I myself use the Seisan katas as the core for my training, there are many different versions,each a variation on what would have been the original form of Fujian crane Gung Fu. The variations, options , preferences and personalities of each given form gives the karateka an almost infinite number of training options and subtle variations, whilst essentially practicing only "one" kata

Some nice ideas there Leigh, different to my applications for the opening few motions, which is as it should be. I don't spend much time with recordings as I find it takes up training time, however , if I can find the opportunity I'll maybe try and get the sequence in question recorded to share on here ( if the interest is there)

In my dojo Naihanchi forms the core of our training. The only other form(s) we study are the Seisan kata (s), which are heavy with all the key points I personally think are required for real world self protection. Students are permitted to ask to learn a different form after Shodan

I think it's worth remembering that Tsuki, whether Oi or Gyaku denotes thrust, not punch, as Uke is to receive, not block. Gyakuzuki Tsukkommi can be reverse descending /downward thrust. With this in mind it may be possible to consider the opening motion (discounting Yoi) as a technique to destroy posture at close quarter grappling range. Examples - seize opponents right arm with your left from the outside and pull inwards as in the Kata, this compromises the opponents posture, right hand seize and grip hair/face/throat /clothing, drop weight and thrust in a descending motion . locate opponents head and draw down to "Yoi ". Drop weight and wrench the head using the opening motion. Obviously a very dangerous option !! With left hand/arm secure opponents head to your chest/ left shoulder, drop into stance applying descending thrust into appropriate vulnerable target - temple, Corotid sinus, base of skull, collar bone, base of the ear, eye socket - clearly there's lots of options. I think the key is PRINCIPLES, rather than fixating on a technique. The opening of Wanshu, in my opinion, deals with close quarter grappling , the motion we're discussing teaches a solid principle for that scenario. The motions that complete the opening sequence expand on this idea - in my opinion

Hi Lupin, Respect to you. I'll offer a few observations of my own, however, Sensei8 has already mentioned that anything that contradicts what your own Sensei is teaching should be handled with care. I believe the key elements that might improve the "performance " are breathing in conjunction with the relevant motion, and a lowering of your Tanden. Re breathing - take the Chudan Uke as an example - we breathe through the nose on preparation and exhale sharply on application. This aides power, focus, timing. It also creates the energy which makes Hikite far more dynamic.The exhalation can be done quietly, it's not necessary to make lots of noise. Re Tanden - this element works in harmony with breathing, but also allows your various movements to remain grounded. This doesn't mean lowering stances , it's about dropping your internal energy - on watching your video you look very "high/raised", the connection between your lower and upper half seems a little divorced, which is not uncommon by any means - you can often see people new to the rank even of Shodan doing the same. I would also slow down your combos until you can apply the above points, allow the power to run its course before moving to the next technique. As I mentioned - if any of that contradicts what you're being taught please feel free to ignore it completely All the best Mark

In the first place the lessons taught in the Jion kata are, in my opinion , no different to the lessons taught by any other form. This would seem obvious to me, as kata are the training syllabus for the habitual acts of physical violence. As we know , any approach to kata should be a personal thing (once you have sufficient knowledge, both mental and physical ), so this would be MY approach to Jion. I like to have an application for the Yoi position - for Jion I imagine closing distance immediately upon losing the pre-engagement initiative (pre-emptive strike). I locate the back of the opponents head/neck to deliver short rising punches - so the first lesson/ strategy teaches how to regain lost initiative , and a good option for which technique to apply once there. The Gedan Barai /Chudan Uke with weight dropping back section is in my approach the follow up to the initial regaining of initiative. In my approach this sequence teaches the clearing of limb obstruction to break posture/ set up locking &limb destruction ideas. The 45° section teaches the redirecting of energy - manipulating to both the inside & outside of the combative engagement. The kata Jion offers preferred application options. On the inside destroy posture to facilitate a takedown using Ushiro Geri in combination with the first Oi -Zuki. On the outside (preferred) we apply a stamping kick to blow out the knee joint to set up a shoulder lock option. This sequence then teaches the strategy of redirecting energy and the specific techniques of takedowns, and set ups for a simple locking option. The kata moves onto the Age - Uke ,Gyaku/Oi -Zuki sequences. My approach considers the fight distance has now shortened. For the sake of practice we say the opponent has seized the lapel. Simple response - smash into the face with Age -Uke/Tsuki. The Gyaku or Oi Zuki which follows actually links to the first turn into Manji Uke. In smashing Age - Uke to the opponents face he drops his head and attempts to stifle the techniques (a predictable response ). On FEELING this the kata instructs us to gain control of the opponents head and turn 180°. This will greatly disrupt his posture. We brace into back stance in response to the opponents aggressive energy. The Manji Uke is applied to rake/wrench the head/face, before the weight shift to deliver a strike with the inside forearm as the opponents head rises from the wrenching technique. This sequence teaches many strategies- control the head, shifting/rotating to break posture, wrenching techniques to open up further impact options. The kata moves onto the Gedan Barai /Shotai Uchi sequence. This expands on the clearing or redirecting of energy to deliver devastating palm heel strikes. A similar sequence is repeated later in the form, this time with Tettsui strikes. Some versions include a knee/stamping option which is sensible - applying the Ashi Waza will break the opponent down which renders Shotai inappropriate - the Tettsui however is ideal. Here we have Jion teaching the correct impact option. The second Manji Uke which shifts into Morote Uke in attention stance teaches another use for Manji Uke. Opponent attacks - we lean away (back stance) and flinch to cover (Manji Uke preparation ) , recieving the opponents technique. We immediately deliver a Gedan Barai descending hammer fist strike, then instantly pass the opponents received limb to shift ourself to the outside of the combative engagement. We press the opponents limb to affect is posture by moving into attention stance, this leaves us perfectly placed to strike with an uppercut strike (Morote uke ). So this sequence teaches how to recieve and pass energy, how to disadvantage the opponents posture. Moving into the attention stance with double Gedan Barai allows us to draw the opponents head down, and onto the knee strike with Gedan Juji Uke. The sequence of low block, shift back into double Gedan Barai teaches two things - what to do if the opponent forces your head down, and what to do if you force your opponents head down and he attempts to tackle your legs. The double Chudan Uke -Shotai - Age Uke - Tettsui sequence considers the option of wedging/disrupting the opponent at source, by closing and disrupting his shoulder movement (Chudan Uke ). The opponent then gives striking , covering and redirecting options , all contained within Shotai -Age uke -Tettsui. The Chudan Uke Oi - Zuki at 90°teaches us to get offline on receipt of energy. It also teaches how to break a wrist grab, which can then flow nicely into a limb destruction or locking option. The kata teaches the quick shifting offline , whilst simultaneously disrupting posture. I've mentioned the Gedan Barai -Tettsui sequence already so we move onto the final sequence. The version I practice it's an arcing palm heel in combination with Empi with the other hand, which extends into a hammer fist strike. The final sequence deals with dire situations. The other lessons have either failed or are inappropriate. The opponent is at extreme close quarters, grappling and has the initiative. The final sequence teaches how to create space through a raking Shotai to create enough of a flinch to deliver Empi. This creates more space which allows the hand that delivered Shotai to trap both of the opponents arms, from here we can strike with the Tettsui. If possible you also endeavour to create an angle (90° in the kata ) to enhance the advantage you've created. The lesson taught in the final sequence is how to create space in the most desperate circumstance, and then take immediate and significant advantage. From there any one of the scenarios described can transpire, the kata will have taught you well as to how to handle whichever eventuality occurs. This list is by no means exhaustive and each option should fluidly blend to another as required, without the hindrance of concious thought. When I taught this seminar last summer it was over two parts. The first included pad exercises to drill many of the close quarter impact options. We had two person sets which would inform the Bunkai which was to come. We then looked at my applications, as described. The second seminar brought it all together. "What ifs", likely outcomes, possible failures, personal preferences. The session finished with unscripted Tegumi, based on habitual acts of physical violence. I think the people who came really began to understand why in the old days it was common practice to only study two or three kata. To take all those exercises for Jion, drill them all to unconscious competence, then practice all the "what ifs" and variation possibilities to the same level would be a lifetimes work indeed !!! I hope that helps to illustrate what I feel Jion can teach, albeit in words, which is difficult ,and apologies for the very long post.

Whilst not one of the kata which I teach as part of my syllabus it is one which I have taught during a two part seminar just last summer. Jion is , without question , an excellent system for civilian self defence which teaches key strategies, principles and technique options. Great kata

I think we need to dispense with the idea of "style". We then need to understand what we mean by "sparring". My dojo is focused only on karate for the aim of self protection , this enables our training to have specific and tailored training methods. "Sparring " is always scenario based. We do wear headguards and MMA type gloves but kumite is at full contact. In the regular dojo sparring is confused. Many dojo claim to practice karate for "the street" , yet kumite is always at kicking range , with the in - out dynamic seen in sporting bouts. Kumite should be an extension of the training drills practiced in 2 person exercises, the aim being not to "win" , but to learn and appreciate the speed and unpredictability, and therefore develop the capabilites demonstrated in more sterile drills , but with the added spice of not knowing what's coming AND with the knowledge that you WILL get hit - hard !! This should be the aim of kumite if sport based arts are not the aim - and certainly in my opinion if you're "street orientated" and not engaging in short kumite sets at decent impact then you are leaving yourself sorely under prepared !!

Just thought I'd add another point to consider regarding what is "practical " regarding karate practice. A popular fad these days is for "practical" drills to be far too long. They "look" good as the opponent responds (as directed) to create a drill that allows a chosen sequence to be fully completed. I feel this approach is flawed !! Anyone who has ever had the misfortune to experience real violence will tell you fights/physical confrontations just don't happen that way (unfortunately ). The speed of the altercation is many times quicker and of course not working to a script. We see many examples these days that look simple, brutal and effective. First of all nothing is simple in a real fight , and anything more than your most basic and efficient option will even come close to being so. The next thing I would ask people to carefully consider is how often Uke responds naturally , rather than freezing in position until his script tells him to move. It's this compliance that makes the sequence look "simple and practical". I realise there are always safety issues but I do feel karate of the "practical" type tend to hide behind that fact. I rarely watch Bunkai demonstrations but if I do and it contains more than three elements maximum then I take it with a pinch of salt as it would be virtually impossible against an opponent who can handle themselves. "Practical" is simple , well drilled techniques designed to end a situation in as few a techniques as possible

"It is said that if one was to only do Naihanchi Shodan, and only that their life wouldn't be a wasted effort ! " Absolutely agree 100% Without wanting to keep repeating what I've said on other posts that's exactly what I do. Naihanchi and Seisan are the only forms on my syllabus. I do practice various versions of Seisan, this allows me to consider the differing preferences illustrated in the different versions - which then gives me info on which I can base new training drills - each drill will contain a technique, principal and strategy, which then can feed back as Bunkai ideas - once the Bunkai is learned we feed that back into the various drill types to see how the principles etc can be applied to drills other than the one that spawned it. In my opinion this type of deeper, older approach adds strength to the concept of practicing only a couple of kata, as the time it takes is significant, and besides all the drills possible we haven't even talked about pressure testing Apologies if I've rather veered off the original subject of Kakie etc, l find it impossible to speak of such drills in isolation, without considering the " how and why" , and how they link to every other exercise practiced in the dojo