Beer-monster

I think we're taking about different parts of the kata, having also studied the pinans and well as the heian versions. The conbination I refer to is not repeated on both sides. The one that is repeated is after the morote uke, bring both hands to the side, kick (either mae geri or yoko geri keage depending on style) whilst doing an outward fist attack (either hammer fist, gedan barai, uchi uke, uraken) before doing an elbow smash. This is then repeated on the other side The next sequence appear the same in most styles I've seen when you face north, perform a right knifehand strike whilst covering with the left hand before the forehead and right mae geri before moving into an uraken in kosa dachi. That the part I was refering to in my original post

The interpretation I usually go with is that covering a haymaker from the inside with the left hand you use the shuto against the carotid sinus or weak pint of the jaw. Since this take some accuracy and make not knock the guy out you snap kick them in the groin, which instinctively forces them to bend. Guiding their head down with the circling motion of the left arm you sslip in close with the back leg (thus in cross stance) and slam you elbow into the back of their neck/base of spine ('backfist attack')

Hi all, like many of you have I've been reading Funakoshi's Karate-do Kyohan, and am finding it an interesting read. However one element that seems to stick at me is the bunkai described as the application for various kata movements. Most of them seem to defy reality and do not seem to be methods of practical self defense. For example in reference to the knifehand strike followed by the mae front kick in Heian (pinan) Yondan. The purpose of this technique is to break the elbow of the opponents attacking arm with a kick while holding and drawing the arm in with the hand. Now I'm sure I don't have to explain the reasons why such a technique is implausible to the point of impossible in the hectic battleground of the street/pub/club. So I'm at a loss to explain why a master of Funakoshi's knowledge would publish such methods, was he hiding the true intentions of karate so that no one could learn such dangerous skills from a book, or is it true what I heard about Nakayama, Egami and other shotokan seniors modifying and changing Funakoshi's text? Anyone have any opinion, comments, rebuttals, answers?

Hmm just a thought, but the three gedans might work as a guillotine choke, neck crank type of move (though this is a bit dodgy) In close quarters, dropping your weight use kiba dachi, and using a knife hand to create distance and take a hard grip you use the mikazuki geri to sweep an opponents leg up and away (with a good follow through thus the height). This may or may not (since life is not predictable ) take him down, if not it should have made him stumble enough to slam an elbow into his head. Now since you already have his head, drop the arm straight along one side (gedan barai) and pull his head into the crook formed by the elbow of your supporting arm so his head is in your armpit. Swap the arms to tightnen the guillotine choke, you could put the straight arm over his shoulder for a figure 4 choke. Take hold of his head by the chin with your bent (right) arm and swap again to crank the neck. if this doesn't work, or you want to finish him use yama tsuki to throw him away or take him down (grap one arm high, one low to his groin or thigh lift and twist in a modified body lock take down). Sorry - thats kind of hard to describe in words but I hope you can understand, what do you guys think?

That very true Really that was just a gripe based on my wway of working bunkai, I usually like to have an application that follows the kata movement as close as possible and then move into "henka" by changing the levels, proximity, tool of the move. But thats just me. Back to the yama tsuki, why would you say there are three of them, as thats suggests a stand alone application as well as one that follows from the elbow and leads to the uchi? If that makes any sense. Speaking of the elbow, anyone have anything for the wierd triple supported gedan barai movements in kiba (shiko) dachi?

That is the application we learn too, put in the scrappy, close in environment of a real fight I'm not convinced that it would work (especially considering how difficult it is to use standrad blocks in such times) I'm leaning towards the wrestling body-lock application suggested by TSG, and in the video(thanks Gyte) although that takedown seemed a bit higher than the move is executed in the kata.

hi guys, I'm back with another bunkai question. I was just wondering if anyone had any practical combat applications for the yama tsuki (mountain punch) technique and the low uchi uke that follow in bassai dai (passai) kata. It just seems in my very humble opinion that punching simulataneously with boths fists high and low, is not conducive or particularly applicable in the scrappy, close-in and hectic environment of an actual fight. Nor does the high block low punch bunaki I've heard I've beeing going over it looking for a thrown or some other takedown in the movement but don't seem to be getting anywhere. Any other bunkai for Bassai would be most appreciated as well and I think would make for a useful thread since the majority of us practise this kata in some form or another

"Karate begins with Naihanchi and ends with Naihanchi." Replace the word Naihanchi with Sanchin and you would end with a quote often attributed to Chujun Miyagi (can't be 100% sure on that) Naihanchi/Tekki is the base kata of traditional Shuri-Te/Tomari-Te lineages where Sanchin is the base of Naha-Te lineage karate. both are said to be vital, deadly and contain everything a karateka should know about the art and the combat. Since such emphasis was placed by the old masters on these kata, I thought it might make enlightening conversation (though I have been wrong before ) to open a thread on these kata. What do practitioners of one think of the other? How does the bunaki of Naihanchi/Tekki compare to Sanchin How does the internal aspects developed in the kata compare and influence future karate? What of the different versions such as Higaonna Sanchin and Miyagi sanchin; or Nahanchi and Tekki? Anything anyone else has to say on these kata? Get typing people

That's a new one on me, what's it like? ^_^ I'm always happy to learn about a new style

Sometimes differences can be hard to adapt. Mainly is the tiny details. In my my first style Shokukai we use Shiko dachi alot more, then when I started shotokan it was all kiba dachi. I saw the difference, my brain could adapt to the change, my body was a different matter since it acts on muscle memory. I could tell my toes to point forwards but then sometimes if I was focussing more on the punch, they would slip to a slight angle. Again though, this seemed like a rather small and, except where gradings are concerned, insignificant change. But hey maybe thats just me ^_^

I can grasp the changes quite eaily, anyone who ever tries a different style quickly notcies what is different. Putting aside training methodology which is more to do with the individual that the martial art. One such differenec is in Shokukai we did age uke at a angle where as in Wado and Shotoi we do it parallel. I've heard reasons from both sides to justify there way and I personally don't see age uke as a block anyway, however in the end it just seemed a rather superficial change. In Wado both arms go forwards on a oi tsuki, in shokukai we bring the shoulder round to extend the punch and in Shoto the shoulder is square. Again I've heard explanations to support all sides, but this any many of the other changes all seem skin deep. Most of the changes are small and can be adapted to however, I believe that it is the principles and soul of the art that makes the style not the technique. It is hard to describe but the inate quality which makes karate karate, what it is, the principles behgind the movements and the strategy of the art is the same. A leapord can have different pattern of spots but in the end its the same animal. Its just my opinion but I think too many people get rapped up in this way is the Shotokan way, this the Kyokushinkai way, this is our way do it that way, and don't look deeper to see than in the end there is Karate, just seen with different eyes. Of course saying that doesn't get me any higher up the grade , so I'll just do what they say

Very well said Shorinryu sensei, however I must ask, are the styles of karate really that different? Then again that's what this thread is about, to hear different views. Especially in considering the most common styles out there, many have the same kata and similar movements, what difference does a cat stance rather than a back stance or to have your fist held a bit higher on this movement really make?

That's very true, but all car moves on the same principles and purpose, the differences are mainly superficial details of appearance, design and comfort. After all if you learn to drive in a ford, you can still drive a ferrari (unless one of them was an automatic I guess). I guess it comes down to whether you think that technique matters more than the principle on which it is founded, which often depends on you sensei. Any thoughts

Hi guys. Just wondering what every ones opinion of the different styles is as due to various circumstances and geographical changes I have had to change karate style twice (shokukai to wado to shoto), so I've been thinking of this a lot. So what's your take on the style gap. Do you see Karate as essential the same martial art and that the only differences are superficial or more a matter of how you train rather than what you train. Or do you think of the styles as world apart and completely seperate, such as preying mantis kung fu is from wing chun kung fu. Would you think that someone with a belt in another form of karate would know nothing about you style? If someone with say, a green belt joined you dojo, would he have to start from the beginning again or keep his grade and be given a chance to adjust. Hopefully we can get an active, insightful but respectful thread from this

Hello. I practise Shorinji kan jiu jitsu. However early last year it went through a bit of an identity facelift. It is practised by a group called the Jitsu foundation and is usually now referred to by the simple term " jitsu" or "TJF jiu jitsu" It's quite wide spread through the UK with many clubs at universities. It teaches jiu jitsu with emphasis on defence, with techniques ranging from Judo styles throws to more flowing techniques such as found in aikido. It pressure tests techniques by use of Vs where you are singly attacked by multiple opponents in a near continuous stream. How effective this is for real combat I'm not sure, however it definitely helps you drive through the adrenalin barrier. Its also quite a formal style compared to other dojos I've studied with a strict hierarchy and lots of bowing. I started at university and still find it an enjoyable martial art to study, and the breakfalling is a useful talent to have. My advice try and see. What do you have to lose?