Luther unleashed

I tend to make very long posts, and it’s very difficult for me not to. Me, ignoring the first part wasn’t really ignoring at all. It’s just that for the most part I agreed with you. I did take great issue with the cultural appropriation comment. It is a word that is being used so often today and it really bothers me. I didn’t care for your entire tone about Americans, using karate, using the terminology or any of it really. I don’t think I’m as biased as one would think. For one thing I’m also a first-degree black belt in traditional TSD MDK. I also started out in my early years in tae kwon do, and American kickboxing, which back in the day was basically boxing with your hands while using all of the traditional style kicking. I have been extremely and heavily influenced by Bruce Lee and is open-mindedness. American TSD really fits the formula for what makes me happy because the concept is really TSD as a foundation, and adding all types of martial arts on top of it which, in essence creates a new martial arts chore, but it’s always evolving. This is why I have grown to love the American version more and teach it exclusively. I’m only saying this to establish the idea that I choose the platform and to get across the understanding that when we’re talking about being biased, it is not the only thing I have been exposed to. I don’t have a problem with any comment in this entire thread. I simply disagree and I can do that respectfully I just don’t like your overall tone about Americans and their use of the art or karate in general, especially the part about cultural appropriation. I’m perfectly fine your belief system. Is that what you do makes more sense or whatever it is and I’m even OK you don’t like anything about American martial arts or American karate or American TSD. I respect your opinion. I’m quite used to it, because the fighting that goes on amongst the traditional practitioner is quite the norm and I have said it many times throughout this forum and in conversations. I believe this is what makes mixed martial arts so far superior to traditional martial arts. Additional martial arts cares, much more about following the tradition in the singular method rather than results. They are more worried about fighting with the next person about what is correct but when you have a mixed martial artist or a kickboxer or something of that nature, they don’t care about that they care about results and if somebody’s doing something technically incorrect, but they get the results there’s no fuss. I understand my surroundings, and I understand that we are divided and when I say we I just mean martial artists and even people in this forum are divided as we reside amongst groups that have certain belief systems in martial arts. I just don’t like when people start putting down people and that’s what it felt like to me so I apologize if I came off bitchy but we live in a time where I hear that type of talk all the time in general and I just don’t care for it that’s all.

You think it is embarrassing that Americans who do not fluently speak the language, but learn the terms to bring a tradition into their school, is embarrassing when they make mispronunciations? This is quite strange. I remember when I had a foreign exchange student from Korea in my home. I had seen many different ways to say certain things, and I asked if the way I was saying them was correct and pretty much every way I said the Korean words was correct to her, however the reason we use those terms or terminology in class is to honor the culture. It is not to act like we are from Korea. pat Johnson does not study nor does he practice TSD so it would be normal to not see Koreans as he practices American TSD, which is in essence quite different. In American TSD 90% of the terminology used is not even Korean. It is Japanese. We use terms like sensei and gi. We call karate schools a Dojo. Fact that there are no Koreans in there means very little and the last thing I’ll say when you talk about cultural appropriation this is nauseating to hear you say. The fact is this is why MMA has had such a big shining beacon of light over it the last 10 or even 15 years or more. They just isn’t the same amount of fighting. Not fighting with each other. The more that gets added to it they understand the better you will be. We represent the Korean lineage to honor it not to appropriate it because for the record most people back in the day that American martial arts are extraordinarily proud of being American , which is much different than today where many have lost their pride. This is the biggest turn off about TSD and other traditional martial arts is all of the nitpicking about what is right and what is not and now we’re talking about cultural appropriation, which, as I said, is absolutely nauseating. I respect everybody’s opinion, and so I will respect that yours is different than mine, but I don’t think you understand the basis of karate or TSD for that matter.

Yeah, it is a cool interview. It’s definitely a different scene from the more traditional Japanese styles. Being in the American version of TSD myself these are all people I really looked up to as martial artists. I was very sad to hear about his passing. Is a cool tribute, somebody made for him. There’s so cool pictures in it. Some from the karate kid seen and others.

Is in no way to continue a dialogue wishing to prove who is right or who is wrong, but only to have a dialogue in which we all discuss whether TSD is considered karate or not. Because the idea recently, in the last few posts has truly been challenged, meaning the idea that karate has been challenged. I just feel it’s important to post some things for those interest such as the original poster although I realize the thread is old I think that’s what keeps this place going is constant revival because new generations of people come along with similar questions. Here is the great Pat Johnson, who passed away a few years back. Pat Johnson was the referee in the karate kid and taught martial arts to the actors on the karate kid set. He’s also done a lot more with his life and he’s a prominent figure in American Tang Soo Do which he continuously refers to as American karate. https://youtu.be/GtJQzLm8Ckg?si=LBlBjO0zjs0Apmo_

Here is a cool video for those that wish to delve into this topic branching out to Jesse Enkamp. He visits a Tang Soo Do studio, takes a class and compares what he learns. He references it as Karate (Korean Karate). I speaks about the origins and the meaning of Tang Soo Do translating to China Hand which is the same as Okinawan Karate. Cool find for this topic.

I feel you are really stepping into an area that takes away from making a valid point anymore. You are absolutely set in your position that it isn’t Karate, and after acknowledging you’ll give it the term Korean Karate you know are moving back on that as well. You feel Japanese or Okinawa karate “has the say” because it originated there, but so did Tang Soo Do originate FROM there. It was taught to the Koreans during their occupation of Korea. There are two versions of the origin. One is the Japanese soldiers taught it to the imprisoned Koreans, the other is the Koreans simply watched and learned. I can attest to the fact that Tang Soo Do isn’t popular in Korea anymore, but what logic leads us to say it’s not even Korean anymore simply because it isn’t as popular as it once was. As a matter of fact, I have had a few foreign exchange students in my home. One from Germany and one from Korea. The girl from Korea “yerin” had never even heard of Tang Soo Do. She was 16 yrs old and only heard of Tae Kwon Do. You aren’t wrong in your point about its popularity but popularity now gives way to the true origins of an art and what country it belongs too? Doesn’t that make old styles that aren’t practiced any,ore not of their country because they lost popularity? My instructor who taught the art as Karate, and called it the Korean variant of Shotokan, earned his master rank in Tang Soo Do in Korea on an air force base there. He used all Korean terminology as well. So because Taekwondo is more popular it’s somehow American? So if Taekwondo became the most popular art in Japan and the Japanese divested from their arts, it would mean your version of karate is American if it too became popular in America? id be willing to bet you’d argue nonstop that it is Japanese in origin so it is therefore Japanese weather it fizzled out in Japan or not. American Tang Soo Do is, however an American Karate system. That is true, but Korean based Tang Soo Do such as Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is absolutely Korean. I understand not according to you because you don’t see it as Karate and I respect your opinion but its origins are in Karate. The system was based around Shotokan and thus the origin must matter. Everything isn’t marketing. Most wish to be true to what they do. I know I’m barking up the tree of cheesiness if I keep referring to movies here but we’ve already spoken about Karate kid. The movie best of the best is another that uses Tang Soo Do. The main bad guy from Korea on the Korean team is a grandmaster and pioneer of Tang Soo Do and also runs a large TSD organization (grandmaster Ho Sik Pak)! I’m simply eluding to the fact that, as I mentioned more then once, if seeking the answer to weather Tang Soo Do is Karate or now taking it a step further is even Korean, I’d say the same thing. It depends who you ask. If you ask an Okinawa practitioner of Karate or Japanese style today, they will likely denounce it as Karate. If you ask the Tang Soo Do practitioners themselves when understanding their art came from the Japanese, they’d be in shock that so many don’t accept what they do as karate (the Korean variant)!

It’s not marketing if the practitioners refer to what they are doing as karate. It Is marketing if they do it with the sole purpose of marketing and don’t believe it is. To the original post/question, I believe we have demonstrated the answer. The answer is Tang Soo So is a Korean variant of karate and in terms of American Tang Soo Do it’s an Americanized Korean karate variation. A black bear is still a bear and so is a polar bear also a bear. On an ending note from me, most Japanese and Okinawa practitioners will absolutely not accept it as “Karate” and while some will accept it as “Korean karate” and the like, almost all Tang Soo Do practitioners will call what they do “karate”. Lastly if you look at sensei ichi on YouTube with is ichikawa, his father is one of the most well-known American TSD practitioners going back to being a Chuck Norris student is the president of his Federation. His school is T.O. Westlake Karate studio. These are things you can look into yourself I just know that the answers were vary, depending on who you ask as we have demonstrated. Hope this helps the original posters question.

However, the word karate is used extremely often in the American version of TSD. Even when Chuck Norris began calling it the Chuck Norris system. It is commonly referred to as the Chuck Norris karate system. It’s also important to state that just because something isn’t written doesn’t mean it isn’t a common term in schools and on the building and even in business names.

Absolutely disagree. I only agree if TSD was trying to use the term Shotokan, then it would be silly for them to use that term when nobody in the Art sees them as that. Karate is a broad term and describes an array of techniques, and principles not only where it comes from. these are just opinions, but I think this is why, if you look at our conversation, you will see an example of the reason there is such division in traditional martial arts. Mixed martial arts tend not to have this problem. I see it within the same style often where people argue about the proper use of this or the proper term for that. TSD, in particular is very separated by much of this. it will continue to be called karate as it has been since the 70s by its practitioners and whether or not people from a Japanese style or Okinawa style support. The term it’s going to continue to be used. No matter what the arguing points are. It is used as such much to the dislike of many practitioners of many styles. I do not see this changing. The simplest way I could think of saying it to somebody, and I mean anybody would be to say that TSD is its own thing in a sense, but the primary practice and focus is karate style techniques, and principles of being a hard style and much difference than kung fu, and this is what makes it karate. when speaking of something like tae kwon do, and asking, if it’s karate will know because the techniques truly are something else I mean their forms are different they look like something else, and it just doesn’t follow that same lineage. Not in general. I respect everybody’s opinion, even if mine is different, but all I’m trying to say is that while we have difference of opinion, here it’s important to note why there can never be true unity because most traditional martial artist and schools cannot agree on the premise or the principles that are important, or make it so. I am perfectly comfortable teaching karate and for those who suggest I’m teaching something else and miss using the word karate I’m totally fine with you having your opinion. I will continue to teach karate, however.

See this is my point though. It is developed karate just because it doesn’t look like the original style doesn’t mean that it’s not karate. It just means it’s not the original karate system. To me it looks like karate because it is karate. It just doesn’t look like the original system of karate because it has been built upon. I train in and teach the American version so the version I do does not look like MDK version either. Does that mean it’s not TSD? Well no it’s not the original. It is a modified version of it. It’s the same concept for me.

I understand what you’re saying, but in most cases, the word, Korean or American are not always used. They might be used when specifically talking about the style to a certain extent, but I run a business, my business is A word with karate after but it does not say Korean or American. In fact, because I teach the American version of a Korean art would I use both? It’s a serious question? Would I say I teach American/Korean karate? As for using the word dojo and sensei, you are correct than any traditional TSD school will use the terminology. You’re familiar with in those schools which is Korean language, but it is not only common, but it is absolutely the terminology we use in American tsd to say sensei and dojo and gi instead of do ok and so on. In fact, you will find it interesting that we don’t even call our forms hyung which would be the common term in any traditional TSD school, but we call them kata. You will notice Mr. Krease in the karate kit had a karate studio, and always simply referred to it as karate and in fact, when the school is first introduced, you see a big sign outside that simply says karate. I understand your position you training an art, according to your profile, where, in a sense, it more originates from, but it has been done this way for a very long time, since the 70s, in fact that we refer to what we do as karate. Many who train in Okinawa and sometimes Japanese arts they just don’t like this I understand. I understand what it’s like to train in that setting and feel like anything else is a spin off or not true to what you are doing but that’s just not how we see it. I’m also simply just very open-minded, because as I mentioned, I don’t get into the politics. One place might say one year is good for Black Bell. Another place says no it has to be five or six years. Then another place laughs at you because it took them 10 years. I just don’t don’t see they’re being a universal standard for any of it I think you find what suits you.

The problem I have with what you’re saying is it sounds a lot like you are saying that it cannot be karate because it is a martial art that was developed in Korea? It was developed based on karate. Specifically Japanese karate called shotokan. The premise that you are firmly standing on in which it must be of a specific cultural background, is not a premise, I believe in. I believe in American karate. I believe in Korean karate. I have no problem with a place that teaches freestyle. karate calling it karate. I find very often that purists simply do not like it and most often those purists in my experience are practitioners of Okinawa style, but sometimes Japanese style. In the karate kid, the cobra Kai use American Tang Soo Do, as most here probably know it was taught to them by grandmaster. Pat Johnson, who is a9degree black belt in the system. The Chuck Norris system is the same Art. They all refer to it as karate. It’s fine if you disagree with that, I’m simply saying that I agree with it and I understand there’s a large group of people who will not, and that’s fine. Wikipedia is not the only place I could reference, but I don’t think it would matter. I am a karate teacher. I teach American Tang Soo Do, I do not feel strongly in anyway about your opinion that I do not teach karate. Period. I spent years watching many different factions of Tang Soo Do argue about what techniques were proper, and what techniques were not proper and which organizations taught the real stuff and which ones didn’t. I just don’t get into the politics of it all. If it is truly Art, it is made to be individualized at some point anyways otherwise we cannot call it Art.

From Wikipedia. Etymology. "Tang Soo Do" (당수도) is the Korean pronunciation of the Hanja 唐手道 (pronounced Táng shǒu dào in Mandarin), and translates literally to "The Way of the Tang Hand." The same characters can be pronounced "karate-dō" in Japanese.

I think the simplest way to view this is… those who practice the original styles of Karate don’t seem to ever concede. To them, karate cannot come from Korea, or even America for that matter. Depending on the characters used for TSD, they translate in Japanese to “karate”! Therefore it IS Korean Karate. Chuck Norris himself calls it Karate. Many Americans call styles karate that are American versions of karate. Can we only use the term if it comes from Okinawa or Japan? Is there a line to be drawn? I believe so, sure. Kung fu doesn’t really fit the term Karate, and in my opinion neither does Tae Kwon Do. At least most variations. Especially wtf or what is now I believe called WT. Many Schools including mine, call Tang Soo Do, “Tang Soo Do Karate” as one term. Primarily there is just a bit of separation between those who practice the original styles of karate. They will never acknowledge in most cases what everybody else considers it to be. Karate.

I hate to say it and do t want to offend anybody but I think teaching for free, although coming from a good place, it’s very bad for martial arts businesses. I used to teach for a city. The amount the city rec took was 5 dollars per student I got the rest. After years of teaching a guy came in wanting to teach for free. The city took advantage of this and charged 10 dollars for their benefit. When my numbers dipped from 37 to 19, they offered little support. I was confident in what I did and I wasn’t worried about competition but when I realized the people who promote my program were benefiting more somewhere else I saw what I problem this was for me. Also, years later, when I had a guy who I consider a friend now, but was teaching in my karate studio, he was a black belt in Gracie jujitsu. As a matter fact, he’s out of the school here in Phoenix and still is which the UFC superstar Mackenzie Dern is out of. It’s an absolutely fantastic Brazilian jujitsu program. He pointed out to me that Jiu jitsu is very strict in the community about charging to Littell and part of the reason that is is to hold a standard but the other reason is because the minute you start to compete pricewise and somebody goes 30 or $40 a month it ruins the art because people price compete and lowball. Fact of the matter is, most common potential students will go for the lower price. On a personal level, there is nothing wrong with teaching for free and I mean absolutely nothing but that’s why my statement was. It is bad for martial arts businesses. Being a teacher of karate , I can testify that I see programs for as little as $35 a month in my area and this issue is widespread. Driving the price down and making it seem as though Karate is not worth paying the same as Brazilian jujitsu is a problem in my eyes. Something to consider.