njd

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them. With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion so karate guys cant really hit full force because they might injure? yet kickboxing, MT, sanshou and boxing do practice full force... how about the more likely answer is that most people here think they train in an effective art or manner and really don't. but nope, no one will admit it. Yes that is probably the truth of it . Most people just want a hobby but don't really want to be smashed in the face etc and that is why a lot of what is learnt is untested and probably wouldn't work in a real situation.

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them. With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion

I've just finished with Tang Soo do after reaching my goal of 1st Dan. Looking to do something a bit different and so for now have chosen BJJ. You are right when you say it is humbling rolling with those guys!!! Even the second belt takes like 2 years (Blue) and I'm amazed at the skill level and how they can wrap me up so easily. Then again I have no grappling skills at the moment. None of the guys I trained with, even 5th or 6th dans, would ever win against these blue belts as they are completely different. They also spend their time grappling and can't progress unless they have proved their skills. Whereas a lot of our time was spent doing forms etc.

To me that is completely wrong. I find it difficult to accept as there wouldn't be any respect from the martial arts world for those grades as they are not really earned as so to me are invalid.

Wow that's a very senior grade! I see the point that you can wrestle all day long but can't really strike full force.

This has been discussed here many times, but TMA and self defence aren't always mutual bed-partners. Most gendai martial arts are designed to reflect the qualities of Budo rather than self protection. These are not dirty words! - It's the truth. The best way to learn self defence is go to self defence classes. IMO, as long as instructors are upfornt and honest about this then, then the rewards from learning a quality tradition far outstrip the need to be able to fight. The problem I think you are aluding to is that most TMA instructors out there are falsely selling what they do (probably because they are deluded themselves), and I agree with you - that's poor! K. I think that you've hit the nail on the head. TMA seem to promote the fact that they are self defence when in fact they are not. It would seem silly to a member of public for a black belt to be attending self defence classes as they would expect them to already know this. Unless you are maybe saying Krav Maga?

In Tang Soo Do a master rank is 4th dan which could take say 14 years, which to me seems a little too early as a friend of mine is a 7th dan in Aikido after 35 years of training. I know of a 4th dan who was 21. He will be due for his 5th dan at the age of 26. I have to say that he is technically excellent and one of the best in the world in our organisation for forms, point sparring and weapons etc. But then he is a full time MA now.

If you don't mind me asking- what style and grade are you? Are you a full time instructor?

knocks. I hope you don't mind me saying, but you seem obsessed with fighting!? K He he it may seem like that but I'm not . It's just that if I spend years learning a MA i would want to gain certain skills from this other than to be able to perform several forms. I would want to be able to defend myself and family if the need ever arose. I'm just worried that TSD does not fulfill that desire unless you spend 15 years studying it. Maybe I just want a quick solution, I mean why should it take that long to learn how to defend yourself?

It must be fully understood the the aims of TMA and MMA are very different. A cage fight is a false example. Yes a TMA practitioner has problems against a MMA practitioner. It's the old chestnut of the difference between contact training and non-contact training. One last point from my own experience. I'm 54 and fit enough and able enough to visit MMA clubs and win respect for my ability and fitness among the young MMA students. There coaches are often younger than I am, but most no longer part take in the class as such, but purely coach. Why, on both point ? Injury. MMA is a young persons game, the level of training and the injuries involved in competing etc, means it is unsustainable as a training method longer term - unlike Traditional Martial Arts. Which at 54 I am still heavily involved with on a near daily basis. This gives me a level of conditioning that allows me to dip into MMA, but that is all, dip in and out. Regular involvement in MMA's training methods would end my martial arts training due to injury - full stop ! I agree the aims are different. Interesting about the injury issue. I would still say though that from the outside a 4th dan karate chap should be able to handle an MMA fighter with say 2 years experience. From what I've seen that probably wouldn't happen. If we don;t train to learn to fight then is there a difference in TMA to say learning to dance but with all the strictness added in. I know it's extreme but I think I'm a little disillusioned with the martial arts arena at the moment. You have some senior belts who genuinely believe that they could handle themselves but I don;t think that's true some of the time. I was always told that rugby players cause no worries for MA's as they throw haymakers etc. I would argue that a lot of the rugby players would be able to endure more pain than the average Martial artist as they are used to taking the knocks.

I trained in a TMA (Tang Soo Do) for around 5 years. I enjoyed it while I was there and had a feeling of achievement when I passed my 1st Dan. Now that I'm not there I can look at it from a different point of view, as my judgement is no longer biased towards defending TSD. The reason people look down on TMA is that they are not as practical as say MMA full stop. Look at it this way- MMA have no forms, no bowing, no terminology, no lectures of why we do this etc, no line up in grade order, sit down in grade order etc etc. A lot more of the class is for conditioning and actual useful sparring. If someone trained in MMA for 5 years or a TMA for 5 years I struggle to see how the TMA in general could ever compete in a fight with MMA. To me the reason I started TSD was to learn a self defence and stay fit. It def helped me keep fit but I really question if it helped with self defence. Being a black belt to the outside world means that you can fight. In reality as TMA know that is not true- it means that you learned and practised the syllabus to a decent quality and stuck at it for a few years. From my experience anyone can get a black belt in Karate eventually. In BJJ as I understand, if you are not good enough you will never become a black belt. I think that undermines the TMA too. A few of my friends trained in MMA for about a year and the had a go at cage fighting and doing pretty well. I know that none of my fellow TSD practitioners would ever be ready for that even after 5 years. I know people will say that TMA's are not interested in competing but in reality I think that's because they are happy making a living teaching etc but probably know deep down that they would not get very far against MMA fighters.

Its tough to say a "who would win" percentage between the two. Both have different methodologies and training protocols. Boxers are likely to have pretty good wind, and are used to doing rounds upon rounds of drills. They also will end up sparring sooner, and learning how to deal with contact. But, like what Justice mentioned, the gloves change things a bit, along with the rules, but that happens in a lot of MA practices. I'd say that if you are looking for the compliment for your stand-up, then looking into BJJ would be a great idea. You'll learn the importance of improving and maintaining superior positioning when on the ground, which is the key to getting up and then standing, which will enable you to use your stand-up skills, or to get away. Also, welcome to the Forums. Glad to have your here. Ok, I went to Judo on Friday and enjoyed it! Felt a little humbling as I knew absolutely nothing about it but that made it interesting. I was the oldest there (30!) which put me off a bit but that meant I trained with the instructor quite a lot. He said that there are seniors who train but not too often so I am a little concerened that if I choose Judo I'll not progress as I won't have people my age/size etc to train with. It seems as if Judo appeals to younger people? I'm going to give bjj a try next week and keep an open mind for the next few weeks.

'I had it noted by one person I dealt with who had trained a few things that the best combination he knew of arts was western Boxing with Judo, as they both used almost the exact same stances in most cases; as soon as it gets into the boxing clinch, you are in Judo's realm already in a proper Judo stance and position. Both of those arts are easy to find and affordable and have lots of contact and competition to test yourself with.' That makes sense especially with the boxing. I'm sure that in general if someone trained in boxing and another in karate for the same amount of time that the boxer would most often win. They are more conditioned to take the knocks and also spend much more time actually fighting/sparring that most who do Karate. Do you agree? As I said I;ve been training in TSD for around four years and wouldn't fancy coming up against a boxer with 4 years training!

it would be for self defence. where i live an awful lot of people are taking bjj. i worry that tang soo do is not as effective. i prob spend 10percent of tge time sparring. bjj or judo prob spend 70-80. thats a huge difference.

I can only spend 2 days per week training in a MA as I have lots of commitments. So realisticially I think I can only do the one. I'll give Judo a go firstly once a week and keep the TSD going and see what happens. Would Judo be more effective in real world defence than Karate in your opinion?