kozushi

Judo and karate both take advantage of the enemy's clothing - a very smart strategy. Both judo and karate work in MMA, but they work even better in real fights. If you are a karateka fighting a judoka, you have one chance to get a killer strike in. If it lands, and you have done your homework on the makiwara and all, you stand a good chance of winning. If it doesn't land, then you will be grabbed and thrown onto the ground where you will be beaten senseless or crushed. The two martial arts complement each other well. The famous Kimura was an expert at both.

Learn the names of all the judo moves and what they represent. This will speed things up a lot. Walking is a good overall exercise in balance and fitness that helps a lot in any sport, including judo. Obviously running is even better! Skipping rope and similar helps too. Lifting weights is very good stuff for judo. Practicing your old TKD skills is good too. Judo has a branch called "atemi" that is striking skills - now not really formally done, but it is part of the original system. It's basically the striking techniques of karate without the katas. Hitting bags is good. If you have no equipment, then walking, running, pushups, striking the air. The rope on the tree for throwing practice is good if you can manage to do it conveniently.

Thanks for the links. According to the Stanford one, which is a translation from a Korean book, all the founders were Shotokan guys, except one guy ALSO had learned a Chinese martial art of some kind, and one other guy ALSO taught judo. So, it's basically a development of Shotokan.

So the big question is as to where the 10 founders learnt their stuff. If we can find that out, we're in business.

Two former South Korean soldiers visited my house today, one in his 50s the other in his 20s. Both learned the Taeguk forms and neither had ever even heard of the Palgwe! I guess that cinches it!

So, just to clarify: The Palgwe poomse are NOT DONE in South Korea anymore?

Okay, but I read somewhere that the 10 founders were all students of Won Kuk Lee, and he was one of the very best produced by Gichin Funakoshi in Tokyo, Japan. Lee was at that dojo from the 20s until 1944, I assume. Then in Korea, he says that he taught the various future founders of the other "kwans." Lee fled back to Japan in 1950 at the start of the Korean War. One of his students joined the North and taught Lee's Shotokan Karate (aka Tang Soo Do) there. I totally can see Choi as an important force behind moulding TKD into THE martial art of Korea, but I think he's more of an organizer, politician, popularizer, than the originator of the movements in the poomse and kibon. If we're talking technique, then would it not be Lee who is the origin of the stuff? Did any of the 10 founders learn his Karate from someone else other than Lee???

Trust me, Canada's "history" is full of a lot more @#$% than Korea's is.

But what about Won Kuk Lee??? I thought he was the real founder.

Actually, I'm a history teacher, and in my opinion, what we call "history" would be better termed "legend."

I agree. And, if the Muye is just as obscure in Korean/Chinese as it is in English then I too think there is no real way of ever fully deciphering it. Nothing wrong about borrowing and adapting from other cultures! If TKD comes from Shotokan, then so what?

I haven't read the Muye book in Korean yet; I own it in English. There is almost no way to actually bring the movements correctly back to life from the English translation. However, maybe some superior scholarship, cross-referencing names for techniques and postures from Chinese and Japanese living traditions, could do it though. I have a hope that the guys into doing this work in Korea know what they are doing. A lot of the stuff I've seen recreated looks pretty convincing. I tried to learn a halberd poomse from the book, and what I came up with was significantly different than the one the recreationists performed on Youtube. But if you're willing to accept that you might get it 5 to 10% wrong but 90-95% right, and this doesn't bother you then I think there is definitely something to it. I think the unarmed stuff is more interesting these days since we don't walk around with weapons much. Having said that, I do stick fighting an hour a week with my judo buddies, and it is a very interesting activity! The TKD stuff is gold, since you don't need hardly any space to do it; you can do it at home; and you don't need any equipment at all! Taekkyon, Ssirum, Muye stuff and archery all take either someone to do it with or lots of space.

I don't know why the Koreans can't take pride in their excellent traditional Ssirum wrestling and archery prowess, and accept their own modern inventions (like TKD) as modern, and it is okay to be modern! Even the Muye Dobo Tongji is made up of a great many Japanese and Chinese weapons forms. Taking something foreign and then modifying it for your own use is what everybody does. Even Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Christianity came from elsewhere.

I guess the analogy would kind of be hockey for Canada. But I'd assume hockey is more popular in Canada among all age groups than TKD is for all age groups in Korea. Are you doing your master's degree in Korea, or are you going back to the States to do it? Hey, don't the police and army in Korea practice TKD? They'd be 'specialists' in a sense, right? I remember doing judo with some air force pilots and police officers... So, my study programme will be the Taeguks and the Black Belts forms then, and next time I'm in Korea, which could be in three years or so, I'll visit some dojang, if there is an adult one, and have fun for a few months there.

Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation for Kara Te Do. You can look to Shotokan for its induction to Korea via Won Kuk Lee in 1944, opening the Chung do Kwan in Seoul, the first martial arts club allowed under Japanese rule there. Lee moved there in 1944 from Japan to escape the bombing runs. He left Korea in 1950 at the start of the Korean war, and his students who stayed behind went onto create the army's hand to hand combat system - Taekwondo.

I looked at its profile on Amazon. Thanks for referring it. By what logic does he claim TKD was started in 1938??? I'd really like to know that one thing in particular.

It sounds to me like adult TKD is virtually a dead thing. It also sounds to me like the Palgwae are over and done with, so I can probably skip them and go onto the black belt poomses in the book. That's kind of a relief... But I might enjoy the Palgwae anyways later on... I actually did Taekkyon in Wonju for a few weeks back in 1997-8 when I was there over the Christmas break in University. I really enjoyed it. The movements are quite fascinating and the game is unique. The training is gentle and focussed on learning and practicing the 60 or so movements, as opposed to the Korean judo etc approach of lots of conditioning exercises BEFORE you start actually doing judo! I did lots of judo in Korea. When I lived there for a year back in 98-99. I also did it a few summers when I went back to visit later on. Overall, and I think it's strange to say this, there is a WAY stronger martial arts culture in my city of Hamilton, Canada, than I get the impression there is in Korea anywhere. The reason I think is that people in Korea don't work 9-5, they work 9-6, and the one hour makes all the difference. People want to see their families a bit at night. I think a lot of guys work even until midnight or later, often, and most work on weekends too! Nothing wrong with a new martial art... Newer is really 'older' because it builds on prior experience. I don't know if I'd want to spar MMA with Koreans. The judo guys were violent enough. Now, I'm a big tough guy and all, but I got my nose broken and made crooked 3 times from head buts in Korea, and they were all in judo classes! I can't imagine sparring hard with Koreans who are actually supposed to and allowed to smash you in the face! By the way, I'd be happy to learn TKD from anyone who is properly certified to do so, if it means staying away from kids!

Actually, I did some more research and General Choi was the man responsible for collecting the martial arts masters together to create a standard national military martial art form that ended up being called Taekwondo. He was the official face for it, kind of like king James was for the King James Bible - but just like James was not a translator or did work on the book itself, so Choi was more of an overseer than a real fundamental contributor. The first martial arts school in modern Korea was the Chung Do Kwan - a school of Shotokan Karate set up by Won Kuk Lee, who had lived most of his life in Japan, and only returned to Korea in 1944 to avoid the bombs in Japan. He had a hard time persuading the Japanese governor of Korea to let him open up the club, but after the third attempt succeeded, and he was the first Korean allowed to do such a thing. He trained the new Korean national police after Korea gained independence after the war was done the next year. (After being cleared of conspiracy with the enemy Japanese charges!) I think all of the 10 martial arts masters summoned by Choi were Lee's former students. Lee escaped from South Korea to Japan in 1950 after running into some problems with the president, and the Korean War starting. In Japan he taught TKD to US soldiers. In 1976 a US general invited him to move to the USA where he continued teaching TKD until his death at the age of 95! (Another proof that karate increases longevity!) From the little I've read it seems that Lee was happy with the changes made to TKD over the years, but wanted more emphasis on the basics and less emphasis on kicking. He seems to think the sport form is something separate from but connected to the martial art form. Here is a really neat interview with him: http://www.tangsudo.it/html/leewonkuk.html

Oh, I don't really care about a black belt test now. I wouldn't think it is fair to walk into a place and a month or two later walk out with a black belt simply because I have drilled all the moves on my own for a few years. I'd do TKD there to enjoy it. It's a shame there aren't many adults doing it! Yikes! I don't want to end up with a bunch of kids or whatever! There MUST be some adult classes, no? I'll be in Wonju. Are you living in Korea right now??? I do have a background. I did a year of Wado karate as a kid and I did two months of Wado karate a few years ago in the summertime. I also have a long, 22 year background in judo and a combination of formal and informal kickboxing. I'm learning the TKD and karate stuff because it's the only kind of martial art that I can do alone in my basement without any special equipment. It also helps my judo, kicboxing/MMA and self defence to be sure. I was in Korea this past summer for two months. I did kendo (kumdo) there, and it was virtually ALL adults. It was quite the experience to be sure! I was proud of myself that I started out like a tool but within a month got pretty much up to their level and by the end of my stay I was one of the better fighters there - but the coach could still destroy me (and anyone else for that matter!) If you happen to know any adult TKD paces in Wonju, please let me know. I regret not doing TKD ever, since I've taken the time to learn Korean and I married a Korean! Kind of bad that I never wanted to learn TKD, the national sport! Could you please break down the back belt test for me? I'd love to know what's in it, so I have the officially sanctioned set of things to work on mastering. By the way, even though they don't test the palgwae forms, do they still learn them in Korea? As an analogy, there are plenty of judo moves that we don't test anyone for, but are still critical and commonly used ones in judo fighting and judo common knowledge.

Yes, I'm learning them alone. So far I have a daily routine I drill from 2 to 5 times made up of the following: Shotokan: 3 Taikyoku katas (plus one shuto block one I made up) 5 Heian katas 1 Bassai 1 Kwanku 1 Tekki Shodan 1 Jion TKD: 6 TKD Taeguk poomsae I'm not sure learning another set of elementary poomsae (the Palgwae) is a good use of daily training time, or if I'd be better off adding the black belt poomsae to my routine - balancing half and half: half pre-black belt elementary poomsae and half black belt poomsae. Otherwise it would be 16 elementary poomsae drilled over and over and only 9 black belt ones. Please no one recommend I "join a club" or whatever. Next time I'm in Korea I will do TKD, coming into it with the poomsae already learned, and I can refine them there. I am doing the poomsae and katas so I can train at home, alone, because I have three small kids and I can't get out of the house hardly at all.

I'm not sure if I should bother learning the Palgwae forms or not before going onto the black belt forms. I'm getting the impression that they're trying to drop the Palgwae forms, and just do the Taeguk and black belt ones. Does modern WTF instruction require that you master one new Taeguk AND one new Palgwae form before getting your next belt, or does it only require the Taeguk patterns, and the Palgwae are a kind of remnant of the past that some places still practice for the fun of it???

What comes after them then? 90% of the stuff is too dangerous to use in sparring, right?

I've learned and drill the following Shotokan Kata several times daily: Taikyoku Heian Bassai Kwanku Tekki Shodan Jion I've started to learn the WTF TKD poomse now without having finished learning all the Shotokan katas. I'm worried that I'll be missing out on some good Shotokan stuff. But, I'm hoping that the TKD poomse end up containing all the Shotokan techniques in one way or other. If my hope is right, then I have nothing to worry about.

The first TKD is the ITF one, created basically in the 50s during the Korean War out of Shotokan Karate. Then, the head guy of TKD got pushed out of Korea and he fled to Canada. From there he popularized TKD in North Korea to spite the South, which had demonized him. The South then had to change all the poomse (katas) in order to delete General Choi from its history. They didn't get all the 10 original founders of TKD together, but got 7 together. (Of course, General Choi was most definitely NOT invited.) This is when they invented the Palgwae forms, which are very much like the Karate katas, particularly the Heian ones. But a few years later they got all 9 guys together and they created the Taeguk forms, which were intended to replace the Palgwae ones. They also created the black belt forms. A strange thing is that I bought the standard WTF textbook for poomse and it includes the Palgwae forms as if nothing ever happened, and as if it's a standard part of the curriculum. So, maybe it IS still part of the curriculum.

Right. My situation is the same. I have spent my life doing judo and kickboxing. The karate is really a new thing for me. So, I am adding the karate skills onto my kickboxing and judo skills. Actually, in some respects, replacing my older skills with the more tactical karate skills I am learning and drilling in the katas. I think my experience, which is the reverse of the normal for karate, might reveal things about karate that some people might miss going the other (normal) way. Like I wrote above, much of karate seemingly is about "inviting" attacks. There is no way you should do this until you are comfortable with covering everything up like the typical boxing or MT guard - arms up, even one leg up for MT.