yoriki816

ben~ As a matter of fact I am associated with the Yoseikan club in Huntsville. I've been training there for almost 12 years now. Are you local to the area?

Okay I'm going to jump in on the discussion. I believe all of this talk about what dan rank one should have before being allowed to open a school shows that many martial arts are simply putting the cart before the horse. When I step into a dojo I only ask two question regarding the experience of the instructor. Neither of these has anything to do with formal rank. The first is how long they have been training in the style the are teaching and the second is how long they have been teaching. Experience is far more important to me than how many pieces of paper they have hanging on the wall. I am only a shodan, yet have trained for twelve years consistantly. And due to some unusual circumstances, I ran my own dojo for three years during which time I did not have dan rank. Did my students perform poorly on their exams because of my low "ranking". In fact, they all performed quite well, being of a similar skill in almost every category as the students who trained in the school where they were tested. Teaching is not about the belt certificate you hold, it's about the experience with both the curriculum and the ability to express it to other students who want to learn from you. To say a nidan or sandan shouldn't run their own dojo would strike me as saying that the organization may need some quality control. Because if some one with that much "rank" cannot be trusted to impart the basics to a new student or even a mid level student, then I doubt that I would want to join an organization that trains their teachers so poorly. Mind you that's just my two yen.

I will redily admit that most Aikido styles are weak against a boxer's quickly recoiling strikes. But there are ways that Aikido throws and by extension some judo and jujitsu technniques can be easily applied using Aiki principles. The key to neutralizing trained fighters is to quickly access the fact that they have skill and then adjust your game plan to accomodate that fact. Unfortunnately most 'pure aikido" styles don't have these tricks in their bag. I would suggest an aikijujitsu style before a more traditional aikido style based on that fact alone. But that's just my two yen.

As someone who studies an style of Aikido which has heavy ties to Judo, I'd like to get in on this discussion. I would definately say that Judo techniques have a definate place alongside the throws and joint techniques of Aikido and Jujitsu in a realistic street environment, even against multiple attackers. The principle problem to that statement is that most judo schools focus so heavily on the competitive sportive nature of the art, that students do not learn how to properly use their techniques against more realistic attacks. Aikido has it's weaknesses as well. It oft times lacks in ability to deal with a well trained attacker, and takes longer to master for most students in it's purest most conceptual form. I think that's the trade off you get when choosing one over the other. I was lucky to find a style of aikido that takes the best from aikido, judo, and traditional jujitsu and blends it all into a seamless system. While it still has it's weak points I think all in all it covers the bases fairly well.

Yes a hakama will definately interfere with and kicks you want to do. A bit of history on the hakama. The hakama are usually used only when doing Aikido, Kenjutsu, and Iaido. The main reason for wearing the hakama(other than just looking cool) is to help hide footwork. By obscuring the movement of the feet, the different styles of kenjutsu, iaido, and aikido were better able to keep rival schools from deciphering the secrets of their techniques. Since footwork is everything in Aikido especially it makes really good sense.

Jerry~ I would have to agree with you that what Kensai proposes is not likely to be effective against a boxer who isn't trying to score anything more than a surface hit with his lead hand. I'm sure he was working with a committed strike that was meant to do damage rather than the softening punch you describe. Something very similar to what he describes works against an untrained jab pretty well, but not against a boxer or trained karateka. I would like to point out that there is no reason when given proper distancing and tai sabaki is used that a trained Aikidoka would need to respond to a noncommited punch such as you describe here. That is because tori would always be just out of uke's reach, forcing him to commit to an attack allowing tori to respond correctly. There are other methods that we use in my dojo to draw a boxers strikes toward specific areas, as well as higher level of timing that allows tori to respond before the punch is launched to allow him to smother uke's ability to strike and apply an appropriate takedown. The timing trick however is incredibly hard to accomplish without lots and lots of practice, but I've seen it work against many a trained striker. But personally I like to use a little bit of JKD trapping with my aikido to slip the jab as I get into position for a modified kaiten nage. I know it sounds strange but it works.

I couldn't agree more. Well said Beer Monster. The problem is that martial arts shouldn't be so tied to the practicioner's ego. Something which I see far too much on the forums. I agree that I think that my particular art is the best. For me. Martial Arts are not for everyone and each individual art is not for everyone. I know there are holes in my training. It's the nature of being good at anything. To be good at one thing you have to pay less attention to something else. Learn how to use what you know as effectively as it can be for you, and if that doesn't leave you feeling safe enough then by all means find something that fills in the rough spots. Do you need to know how to ground fight in order to survive a confrontation? I'd say it helps a lot, but is not absolutely necessary. I'm not training to become a streetfighter or UFC champion. It's unrealistic for me to act as if I am. The only question I feel the need to answer in the realm of self defense is this; "Can I defend myself and my family if I am put in a situation where I have no choice?" Realizing of course that I am not likely to get mugged by a guy who has 5 years experience in Muay Thai or BJJ or and anything else. Against an opponent who has street fighting experience with little or no martial training, I don't feel that I need to be a black belt in six martial arts and compete in tough man competitions to prepare from a possible mugging. I know enough to spot the danger signs in most circumstances and get myself and my family out of harm's way, that's a lot easier and less messy legally than me rolling on the ground snapping elbows and such. The mind is the best weapon of all.

It all depend on what dort of throw you choose to use and the attack you are dealing with. Rear grasps such as bear hugs, headlocks or chokes lend themselves nicely to hip and shoulder throws such as seoi nage or o goshi. Straight line punches are better handled with irimi nage which is basically an aikido or jujitsu closeline. Haymakers lend themselves to four corner throws, like shi ho nage or more hip and shoulder throws. In short throws can be very effective in real life situations if you know how to respond to the variety of attacks you may be faced with. The only other thing to consider is that these techniques, especially the hip and shoulder throws, are quite dangerous to someone who does not know how to fall and can cause more serious injury than you want to inflict. I hope this was helpful.

I have to go on records as saying that while Aikido is a terribly difficult art to master, and that to attain the "untouchable" status even more unlikely, that it "DOES NOT" not require ten years of practice to be effective for self defense. I have foolishly allowed myself to be drawn in confrontations where I was called upon to use my knowledge of aikido. Keep in mind that it was years ago, after about three years of training and I have since learned the error of such conduct. The point is that I was more than capable of defending myself using techniques that I had learned in the dojo. I've said this before but I'll repeat it. Aikido was designed for mortal combat, and the only difference between the art at it's inception and the common Aikido schools today is that the focus isn't on making the technique street effective right away. If a diligent student practices well and considers the realities of self defense carefully, he or she can easily find the way to make the aikido work to his or her advantage if the need to do so presents itself. Hope this helps answer your question.

Kensai~ While I rarely find myself in such a situation because I'm often the larger of the two people doing ne waza, I would offer two possible solutions. 1. If you don't start in a kumi uchi position(meaning you aren't already grabbing each other) and he charges forward with arms extended to propel you backward you might try placing one hand in his armpit forcing the shoulder upwards toward his head while simulataneously pushing inward on his opposite knee. This movement when done correctly, lands uke on his back and in excellent position for any number of classic aiki pinning techniques. 2. And going from a more jujitsu approach you can always fall into a guard position and use your opponents gi to apply a juji jime or more commonly called a cross lapel choke. If you pull him to your chest as you do this you can almost completely eliminate the prospect of him breaking in your face with punches. Hope this was of some help.

Not to contradict Kensai or any of the other folks who have posted replies to this question, but I would have to say that YES there are definately kata taught in Aikido dojos, in fact my Shodan exam was full of them. To be true some of them involved weapon work. (knife and sword to be specific) but at least one was pure aikido. I realize that Yoseikan Aikido is unusual in this regard, and that the previous replies were correct when applied to their respective styles, but some styles do use kata. I can think of three specific kata that do not involve weapons or karate and I'll give you a brief run down of them. Jutsuri No Kata or Form of the Soft Catch: in this kata you and a partner demonstrate several basic aikido principles of deflection and redirection through very slowly setting up a variety of techniques only to execute them with power. Tai Sabaki No Kata or Form of Body Shifting: in this kata the 10 basic methods for avoiding a strike are demonstrated with a technique that uses only that one piece of footwork to execute. Hiori No Kata or Form of Escape and Reversal: in this kata two students go through a series of techniques that are continually countered and reversed until one student actually ends up on the mat. There are more but those are the major ones. Hope this helps.

I can sympathize with part of your dilemma, being of slightly over average height and 50 or so pounds overweight and so inflexible that I cannot touch my toes even after ten years of trying. I am terribly sory to hear that you were injured in a Judo class, because it would be a definate good choice for your body type. A Shotokan school would definately be a good idea, and the previous post is correct; height in kicking is something that varies from student to student and any good instructor knows that and will work with you at the limits of your abilities. I do think that if you enjoyed Judo that Jujitsu would be a good choice, and to answer your question it does work for the big guy as well as the little guy. One of the most impressive instructors in our dojo is a guy that for the majority of his training looked like a junior Sumo wrestler. He's lost some weight to be sure, but he's still a big big man. Just keep in mind to work with your limitations, work through discomfort while not pushing so hard as to risk injury. Being overweight and inflexible is not insurmountable in the martial arts. If it was I wouldn't have made it this far. Good luck in your practice.

Kensai, A sprawl is a counter to the more common single or double leg take down seen in many forms of grappling such as BJJ. Simply put you pull back your legs as the attacker goes for your legs and use your hands to direct him to the ground. I've found this works especially well against those specific attacks and not so well against other types of take downs. It's a very aiki thing to do however lol.

Don't worry too much about the falling practice you watched, very few instructors willl start a new student with standing flat falls. Most teach rolling and flat falls from kneeling first, which cuts the momentum of both the fall and the impact down considerably. As the last person suggested I would be very diligent in my practice of ukemi, because developing bad habits now will definately lead to injuries later. I for one had to learn the hard way. Good luck in your practice.

The sacrifice throw or sutemi as it is called in Japanese is basically done by allowing yourself to fall, thus taking your opponent to the ground. These techniques are fairly common in judo, although they actually come from aikijujitsu. In their non competition form they are very dangerous and can result in serious injury if used at full speed against someone who does not know how to fall properly. Yoseikan Aikido specialized in sacrifice throws and in fact a large number of the sacrifice throws in modern Judo were taught to senior instructors at the Kodokan by Shihan Mochizuki. Hopefully that helps explain things a bit.

LOL Kensai you are too much... your fellow arranger of flowers

Vascular or "blood" chokes as I have also heard them called can be very dangerous if applied without proper training and supervision in the dojo environment. It is best to wait for detailed instruction and plenty of supervised practice before attempting these techniques anything other than a life or death confrontation. In my dojo, chokes are not even taught until Sankyu (we have seven kyu ranks) and are not allowed in any sort of free form practice such as randori or groundwork until Ikkyu or Shodan depending on the competence and attitude of the student.

koreantiger, You might want to consider aikijujistu for the best of both worlds. Most schools teach nage waza(throws and takedowns) kansetsu waza (joint locking and immobilizations) atemi waza (striking teckniques) and ne waza (groundfighting) with both submissions and chokes. Weapons are often taught as well as weapon seizing (emono dori). This sort of curriculum seems to cover most bases without the over specialization seen any mony other similar arts such as aikido, judo and brazilian jujitsu. But that's just my two cents. Hope I was of some help.

Kensai, Glad to hear that you enjoyed your Judo training. I personally love Tai Otoshi for Judo style grappling it's very satisfying for me not to have to load uke on my back. But in real world considerations it's a very difficult technique to apply on anyone not wearing a heavy jackt or coat. It's perhaps the hardest of Judo nage waza to adapt to a more aiki approach. I think you'll find that seoi nage and o goshi will be much easier to incorporate into a more aiki blend when dealing with more realistic street attacks. The ne waza on the other hand is liable to increase your pinning skill exponentially if you take the time to learn to apply it. Good luck on your practice.

Aikidoka, It's good to see you on this topic. I always find your responses to be very articulate and informative. I would have to agree that sparring or even a competetive style of randori being against the principles of Aikido is wholly determined by the sincerity and correct attitude of the participants. In Yoseikan Aikido we have a form of randori called Kyoei that focuses on counters and reversals that is done at a slower speed than our version of shiai. The idea is that there is neither tori nor uke until the one of the participants takes ukemi. There is no winner or loser, the entire purpose of the exercise is to allow your opponent to experience the highest level of his or her aikido by allowing them to blend and respond naturally. Most students find this type of exercise very difficult because they are trying to throw their partner, and in response more often than not find themselves on the mat much more quickly than was expected. I'll end by saying that competition can give the student the benefit of practicing in a more realistic environment and only has negative effects on the spirit of the student or the art, when it is used to build and destroy egos rather than technique and understanding of the art.

Metal Man, Once again welcome aboard.

Kensai~ I would assume he is referring to Oyama Sensei's comment.

Make no mistake the world had indeed moved on. The time when a warriors martial prowess relied more on his physical skills than the level of the technology he employs is long since passed us by. I agree that the majority of the martial ways have been sportified, spiritualized, and commercialized to a frightening level. In olden days these techniques were about like and death, and how many of us can say we face that same sense of urgency when we practice. I would agree that part of the changes do result from the simple law of atrophy, the arts have become more and more diluted as they get farther and farther away from the source. And as someone pointed out the amount of time the martial arts practicioner trains is miniscule now compared to the warriors of old. But do we really want to be modern day samurai, fighting for our lives on some battlefield. Is the reason we enjoy our practice about violence? Or is it about enlightenment, fitness, or self confidence? The reasons we train are different and we should understand that with the change in the mindset of the students there will inevitable by a change in the art to suit the needs of those practicing it. Everything evolves it is as simple as that.

Kensai, I can admit that I was a bit taken aback by the fact that such a quote was attributed to Oyama Sensei, but one has to keep in mind that great martial arts prowess and great skill as a teacher does not a great man make. In fact such ability, success and some level of public regognition can do just the opposite. In many cases it can foster an I'm better than the huddled masses and my "technique/ approach to the art is better than anything else" type of attitude. I think the popularity of the UFC and other "mixed martial arts" venues have contributed to that in our day and age as well. Martial artists, even instructors can suffer from egomania just as easily as the rank and file. In fact I have heard stories about Takeda Sensei who's intruction of Ueshiba laid the ground work for Aikido that would lead one to believe that he was a paranoid, violent, and mean spirited man. Does that mean I cannot respect his skill or the contributions he made to the martial art that has changed my life? Not at all. I'll close by saying this, I always respected the skill level of our Grandmaster from the demonstrations I have seen and the stories I had heard told by senior instructors in our art. But one story gave me reason to respect the man more than the skill. My Sensei told of a time during a trip to the home dojo in Japan, when he was late for workout because unexpected delays in taking care of other duties assigned to visiting students. Sensei after arriving late, went into a formal ceremony complete with bowing to Grandmaster Mochizuki who was observing the practice, having reached such an age where he can no longer take a very active role in class. It should be noted that senior Japanese instructor had been observed just bowing at the edge of the mat when arriving late and immediately joining in with the rest of the class. But when Master Mochizuki sees this gaijin instructor doing formal ceremony to begin practice, gets up from his seat, assumes seiza and bows him in. This show of mutual respect from the very head of the system shows more about his character as a martial artist than any of the incredible displays of technique I had ever scene. It makes me proud to be a student of his art. and that's my two cents

Kensai, An Aikido League. I must admit I like the sounds of that. I haven't had the opportunity to look at the URL you posted yet, but have every intention of doing so as soon as I can. I really liked the video clip and intend to spend some time perusing the other clips if there are others to see. I always get a kick out of watching upper level instructors and students practice aikikai and other softer styles of aikido. It's all made to look so very easy. I of course, no better but the effect is the same. My instructor does a good bit of travel with his job, and as a result will sometimes drop into another aikido dojo to workout if that is agreeable with the instructor. I'm quite sure he has done this with an Aikikai dojo on more than one occasion, because he always brings back some goodies to show the rest of us. I learned tenshi nage On a side note, I've noticed that you mention that you hope to learn Judo also. I will go ahead and tell you that once you get a handle on the basics of the nage waza, that they can be combined with aiki blending principles to develop some very powerful aikijudo techniques. My aikijudo isn't so good with the koshi waza (hip throws) but the ashi waza are coming along nicely as a result of some personal time spent researching the best ways to draw uke into compromised kuzushi. The two styles really do work well together resulting in big hang time for uke with little effort on tori's part. Since I've gone on at length again I'll let that be that.