Himokiri Karate

Have you ever met people in karate that were just something else... To give you a counterexample, Rick Hotton is a beacon of wisdom, maturity and quality in karate and a person who is sound of mind as well as being very artistic and very well read. Keep in mind, by something else, sometimes they can be really good or really bad. But mainly different like maybe they have good training but bizarre human beings or really nice people but not very good at being a sensei. Or folks with unconventional training that may either be bad or absolutely the most amazing thing ever.

I have been seriously training in martial arts since 2007. Main focus on boxing. I am still technically a white belt. Never bothered to test for a belt. Sparring tells me all I need to know about technique, composure and cardiovascular conditioning, footwork and punching power.

I train at a Dojang with a Korean master. I go to a Japanese culture center to study Japanese with a private tutor and the Japanese culture center has their own dojo upstairs. My point was to point out that this issue is happening at every martial arts school that uses the belt system. Back in the day, like in the early 2000s, I remember two types of tomfoolery if you will: 1. People were looking for some secret mystical technique that is closely guarded by some powerful legendary master that opens the door to infinite possibility. 2.Others were looking for some deadly military techniques that is taught to the marines and special forces and do dangerous to be unleashed and BANNED from congress! These are two types of people I used to encounter and then the MMA/UFC blew up exactly 20 years ago and everyone wanted to learn MMA. I hear what you are saying, being a black belt lost its meaning. Back then, it used to mean something. Now its like "meh" but for me, I got in to boxing as a young adult and in the boxing culture, a person is defined by their signature style like if a boxer has some sick and slick jab or known for combo or freakishly fast and flashy footwork and countering abilities. Also to be fair, I kind of fall in to the mystical martial artist since I am more and more in to Internal practices like Indian Yoga, Qi Gong, Kujikiri and SunDo. I hear you. I train in the Korean arts mixed of Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo as well as Kyuk Too Ki ( Korean Kickboxing) and Sun Do ( Koreans version of Qi Gong) and I believe there is some Taekkyon and Hapkido in there. Because of that, I do not do the belt system or classes but just train privately with the head master and what I learn I use in boxing sparring like the footwork and feints. Honestly, I tried teaching a few times but I can't do it. Only select few disciples. That and I got in to ecommerce and I was seeing lots of profit but had to pause to learn the business better to serve customers better with better delivery companies, suppliers and etc... With the finances being handled, I would love to teach from a place of passion without profit. Even though my childhood dream was to own a modest dojo. But the economy of martial arts changed, life changed, what people value changed. Different reality from being a kid from the early 90s...

I have been hearing more and more from my Dojang and the Japanese culture center that offers martial arts and other programs that I participate in about new students acting more like clients that want the whole "the customer is always right!" attitude. My Dojang is a no nonsense place, I don't even do the belt system since I am a private student but the master mentioned that he is losing students because they want a black belt fast and that they don't like how he does not have a "Black belt club" or that he does not accept money for quicker promotion. Now its been a while since I posted. Those familiar with me know that I come from a boxing background. This will be my forever martial arts in terms of primary style. But it seems like there is a shift in behavior of students within the martial arts ranking system. People want fast belts, quick promotions and want to be taught that befits their comfort level and if not, they will complain. I remember in the 90s, we never had this behavior. My Japanese language teacher mentioned it seems like a recent thing. Its very luxury fitness type attitude that spills over the martial arts world. Is this a real thing? Have you encountered it in your community?

Update: I started doing Internal Kung Fu at an eccentric Kung Fu place. The atmosphere looks something like Master X training studio and now all of a sudden I am doing these silly forms and with breath work, I feel faster, stronger and more powerful than I have ever before!!!! I am NOT joking, there is something strange with internal Kung Fu and I honestly feel like this energy stuff is no joke and I feel like there is lots of potential for greatness. I honestly feel like Master X might be a real person or a real person with Master X abilities might actually be a real life possibility.

I was reading the new Baki manga and Shinogi who is an expert in Himokiri style karate aka my Username, mentioned that him losing to a vicious dirty fighter is due to the fact that Martial Artist tend to get tunnel visioned by the artistic aspect of their style and they forget the importance of getting down and dirty with a vicious opponent. Funny thing is, when Himokiri karate made its debut in the Baki series over 2 decades ago, Himokiri karate was this evil, dangerous, vicious style of karate that focused on smaller targets, if you check out my signature, that is their philosophy, it was an extreme form of fighting that could not be taught to the public and because of that, the style was not able to propagate because it required full time dedication to developing piercing finger and toe strikes. But now, homeboy takes L left and right But aside from that, in his recent loss, he made a great point that he is too focused on his form and that can hinder his ability to be effective as a fighter or that fighters who are willing to fight dirty can have an advantage vs a fighter who focuses on artistic and clean techniques. Have you ever felt this before in sparring?

I partially disagree, in fact, modern or mixed martial arts in some ways is worse in terms of attracting criminal elements and the way it advertised does attract thugs and gang members. Its just that with MMA, I felt like traditional martial arts was no longer "cool" and so it would no longer attract morally bankrupt characters or egomaniacs. Maybe just a McDojo operator at worse. The thing is though, with the MMA, people get "checked" when they want to flare up their ego unless there is an alpha frat house dynamic and if there is, they are out of business in a hurry. Traditional martial arts is great because you get to build skillset in an environment that is much safer for the human body than an MMA style gym but that safety can sometimes create arrogance because the egomaniacally inclined character will train in the art but will not be tested and not be humbled. So overall I agree, bad people are in MMA. Heck, tons in boxing and ego is kind of encouraged because some trainers from the old school days are cherry pickers and they will give their golden boys special treatment and everyone else has to get verbally beaten down. I'm not sure where we disagree, if at all. I'm a traditionalist at heart. The "old" styles have been handed down to us over at least 400 years, including times when practicing them was banned and times when martial arts was used in self defense against invading soldiers with weapons. The techniques that survive come to us from the people who lived through those ordeals. But the traditional arts carry with them an element of philosophy and ethical conduct. Along with that comes a level of trust and mutual respect between instructor and student. There is absolutely no place for an instructor who berates his students. And I agree that MMA schools attract a higher percentage of the wrong people. The whole attitude and the way MMA is presented, to me is the opposite of what martial arts has always been, and should continue to be. Exactly you are correct. The moment you step in to the training room, the training and transferring technique is the only thing that matters. It comes down to marketing and I believe in todays economy and modern culture, MMA presents an opportunity to standout and outlandish behavior is rewarded for it. So this creates an unhealthy character of misconduct resulting in positive outcome. The main issue is that it also creates depression and untold levels of misery. If I may give an example from my boxing days: During the 2000s and early 2010s, boxing was a reclusive culture and was called a poor mans sport. Back then, it was like 70 dollars a year and you were expected to fight for the club so they could keep the lights on. No room for recreational members. With that said, you could have been the potential hot shot but if you did bad, the coach would be immensely disappointed and they would mention how being the champ and winning fights can give you money, fame and respect. While losing is a fate that is worse than death itself because you go back to being a nobody. This was the attitude of many boxing coaches. So because of that, lot of guys had incredible cardio and stamina but they hated training and places were tense because every boxer wanted to the trainers favorite student and so there was always that tension. Long story short, people would burn out, losing a fight messed boxers up, lot of them would end up worse than when they started because they would get addicted to drugs and if they failed to make it, they would feel like complete failures because their entire identity was tied to being a successful fighter. Traditional martial arts is great because the fight is more internal. Granted some traditionalist are somewhat laxed with their cardio which is not good but overall, people who are life long martial artist tend to do very well in life because martial arts in a traditional setting teaches to not just be a winner but to be able to contemplate, to reflect on the technique. The idea is mastery of the skills and styles which allows for someone to be more relaxed in engaging in martial arts training and are not rushing towards results. Of course no subculture is perfect. But overall, the traditional martial artist seem to do better in life than combat sports fighters because they train in a more holistic environment with more well adjusted individual .

I partially disagree, in fact, modern or mixed martial arts in some ways is worse in terms of attracting criminal elements and the way it advertised does attract thugs and gang members. Its just that with MMA, I felt like traditional martial arts was no longer "cool" and so it would no longer attract morally bankrupt characters or egomaniacs. Maybe just a McDojo operator at worse. The thing is though, with the MMA, people get "checked" when they want to flare up their ego unless there is an alpha frat house dynamic and if there is, they are out of business in a hurry. Traditional martial arts is great because you get to build skillset in an environment that is much safer for the human body than an MMA style gym but that safety can sometimes create arrogance because the egomaniacally inclined character will train in the art but will not be tested and not be humbled. So overall I agree, bad people are in MMA. Heck, tons in boxing and ego is kind of encouraged because some trainers from the old school days are cherry pickers and they will give their golden boys special treatment and everyone else has to get verbally beaten down.

I agree with you 100%. There is no room for that kind of treatment of anyone. I had an instructor who was known for that kind of thing at times, and I always felt that same way about it. If there is an issue that becomes a teaching moment for a whole class, that is one thing. But outright berating someone is not tolerable. I would think this would end up driving students away, and the only ones staying are the ones willing to put up with it. In the end, the students need to do their talking with their wallets, but closing them up and refusing to attend such a school. Those who choose to stay, I wonder why they do so? Intimidated to the point that they believe they'd be openly ridiculed for quitting? That kind of action is absurd. I don't think this is really debatable. If we look at the history of what most katas where put together for, as methods for basically storing information for later extrapolation, it is as if it was intentionally done to make it harder to access (if you read up on the traditions, this was probably so). Instructors would reveal much more to the students they trusted more. The real benefit comes from partner drills of the applications. At that point, why not just learn the applications? With all that said, it's important to understand what most the "traditional" styles are doing. They are presenting the self-defense system in the same way that it was preserved over time in order to preserve the system in perpetuity. If this is understood by all parties involved, then everyone knows what they are signing up for, and are taking in all aspects of the training. After all, not everyone signs up for classes to learn how to fight. Agree with the first part. You vote with your money and students should not feel shame. They should expect to be physically exhausted and mentally pushed towards learning intricate techniques but not demoralized emotionally. My apologies, the second part you quoted, I kind of wrote something messy. This is true, in history of karate, I heard that sensei would hold back on technique so that the student does not take it and start their own dojo and cut in their profit. That and if someone just trains jab, they would have an insane jab and so maybe one move at a time was a thing but I digress. There is so much to learn in martial arts from not just technique but delivery of technique and its variation that it is impossible to stick to one move. But of course I tend to romanticize the past and sometimes I assume that ancient martial artist were like anime characters with a million deadly techniques. But in reality, they were just regular people with limited access to martial arts. In a Tang Soo Do book, one of the greatest Tang Soo Do masters was named Master Ko and he was a cobbler or a shoemaker that taught Tang Soo Do in the afternoons as oppose to being a famous teacher. But I guess its a rough way to survive as a full time martial artist and I can see why some masters wish to hold back on students training.

Thank you everyone. I am honored and I actually had no idea this is the 3rd one. I assumed this was the 2nd time and now I feel bad missing the 2nd time. I do remember the first one. It was a huge deal. Thank you Patrick, I hope you are in good health sensei8. Thank you so much Zaine.

Its true that society has become litigious but technically speaking, I don't think there is any legality to shaming language. I can see bad reviews but lot of abusive boxing coaches mask their abuse with the whole: "Oh whats wrong? Cant handle a bit of a verbal roast? Whats going to happen on fight day?" Verbally abusive coaches are completely useless. Great trainers are occupied with footwork, long range, mid-range and close range fighting and the type of strikes you need. Engaging and disengaging as well as pad work to work on cardio and timing. A moment that is dedicated to berating someone is a moment that is lost on covering various aspects of combat. Now I am ok when I am doing the TKD drills and my teacher yells to go faster because him yelling is to inspire urgency and I am ok with that but to pause the training to insult people or encourage others to lay in to another student is something that makes me violently angry. As far as karate goes, I understand different schools have different methods but it always boggles my mind that in 2024, you can still have someone preach that kata is better for fighting than actual sparring. Keep in mind that I think sparring is overrated and very flawed without endless amount of repetition for solid foundation and martial arts are strange. Some students need to get in front of mirror and work on forms. After that, its sparring and with sparring, we start with just a jab, then add a cross and focus on straight punch sparring and then we start adding to sparring one technique at a time or have a sparring that is lead hand with focus on body shots to avoid head hunting habits so the students. There is no yelling, no screaming, no berating anyone. Not to mention that when sparring is over, I have to see if they are weak on the inside, not good at transitioning from mid-range to close range or if they are more natural at long range. So much to do, so much to teach to make sure the students are boxing prepared since that would be their first line of defense before they can bust out the karate/Tang Soo Do and its crazy that in 2024, we have kata freaks that for some odd reason they insist that main focus should be on kata and again, I am fine with kata but to advertise kata as the most efficient form of combat is beyond my ability to comprehend. Also there is stance and form training. Holding the positions in stillness which is the Kung Fu inside the Tang Soo Do. That and I am in Vancouver, things are insanely expensive. The bit of teaching I do is post-sparring at the two boxing gyms that are run by good people. I appreciate the level of love and respect I get by seasoned boxers and newbies alike and so I cannot even fathom as to why someone would want to tear people down or create negative energy or even be so vindictive to take out their nastiness on new guys. One of the gyms I go to is owned by a former pro boxer with a winning record. Super chill all while some random karate sensei with no fighting experience who lays in to people. I cant believe this is the world we live in...

I read a post that is extremely concerning and very troublesome to say the least. A karate dojo is not supposed to be run through fear but it must be a place of hard work, knowledge and creative endeavor. I make this thread out of a very horrific incident in early 2000s I experienced as a young teen in Shotokan karate which was an extremely abusive sensei who was a kata freak and claimed he could beat Mike Tyson in a fight because he has a black belt and he absolutely ran his classes using shame and fear. Encouraging young adults to laugh at young kids if they messed up on a kata. Long story short, you do not learn how to fight and yet end up with a massive ego because of kata memorization. Now I thought these people were weeded out in the mid-2000s. But it seems like they are not. I remember I got in to boxing big time and still am. In fact, as a Tang Soo Do practitioner, I am encouraged to mix boxing to my skills for evasion, footwork, using jabs to set up strikes and angling off to safety or better position. This is was taught to me because my teachers were very encouraging, they absolutely pushed me to my absolute limits to the point of passing out with nonstop footwork training in terms of bouncing, jumping, spinning, switching in between boxing modalities to Tang Soo Do. So we trained super hard and we looked at jab variations, level changing, wide stance, narrow stance, muscle training, bone conditioning, breath work from Yoga, Qi Gong, Kiba dachi or horse stance for balance and posture. Going back to the boxing gym, our training paid off, I would switch stances, bounce, go from side stance to squaring up close range. This is the essence of karate, its to truly find art, perfection, excellence through extreme effort and engaging in the subtle aspect of martial arts. Meanwhile to simply train as a way to just memorize kata is the opposite of the karate spirit, your goal is liberation and not self-imposed imprisonment of your soul. One of the reasons why I always respected the Kyokushin karatekas. They are different but same spirit and passion. I AM ANGRY! Honestly, I am really riled up and typing very aggressively and its extremely depressing to hear that karate dojos that are like the pre-MMA days. I always loved how MMA stressed the importance of freestyle combat. Granted, I did not like or agree with everything they do and I find that they are a bit neglectful on fundamentals but I always loved how they focused on freestyle aspect of the martial arts. Now I assumed all was well but moments before making this thread, I was completely horrified that there are dojos that run their practice using fear, shame and suppression. Honestly, this is a HUGE deal for me. If you guys are in US/Canada, I can show up to places like this and I would be more than happy to expose them. I am generally very laxed about different martial arts and I am cool with hobbyist who look at it as basic self defense, fun exercise and community. No issue with them but I have a huge problem with someone selling things that doesn't work and doing it aggressively and using shame and fear as a way to avoid being scrutinized. This is my main issue and it is a huge issue for me. I feel like we have to really call this out and if you guys have a story or wish to share, please feel free.

I get it, everybody's always with whoever I'm talking to. Okay, moving on... Except we couldn't do this. We'd get ripped a new one if we came into the dojo doing what we learned on YouTube. Or doing what we see higher belts in the dojo doing. Even if you know the whole kata (by observing others), you're only allowed to perform up to what you've officially been trained on in the dojo. And if you know more that what you've officially been trained on, then you best keep your mouth shut. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about that where I am now. Dude, LEAVE a Dojo with that mindset! This is scary stuff if you have to worry about this kind of thing. No dojo is supposed to instill this level of fear. Even in Cobra Kai, students mess around and have fun. I know some dojos that are run like this or I used to before the rise of MMA. In the early 2000s, I met very abusive shotokan experts and training with them was an absolute waste of time. Had the same mentality of freaking out if someone was doing a kata learned from a different style. He also claimed that he could beat Mike Tyson in a fight. Total goof and I lost so much respect for Karate for a solid decade because of these people. MMA came in mid-2000s, got interested in boxing and judo. But then through progression, I discovered Tang Soo Do and Kyokushin. Both value fighting over being a form elitist, its important that you have great cardio, technique and fighting spirit and during Kyokushin sparring, the teachers were always praising my boxing footwork and evasion as well as encouraging me to also incorporate Kyokushin combos. Same in Tang Soo Do and old school Taekwondo, we would use the guard to parry, catch punches, throw counters in conjunction with hand technique as well as bounce in and out as well as use side step shuffles to angle off strikes. They too also were very encouraging about the boxing techniques and they do also recognized the importance of footwork and using lead hand like jabs to set up other strikes or slip in to a better position. These kata warriors are dudes that cant fight and yet act hard or are fake humble pretending like they are above sparring. So they hide behind their katas to protect their delusional thinking. If someone does some kata, they freak out and fly of the handle. Sad part is, they tend to be weaker than a random brawler who is more dangerous because they are at least unpredictable with punches and haymakers. Please leave this type of dojo. I say this as someone who is very concerned with what I just read. This is not the type of place you want to be my friend. As a karateka, we have to honor the art by learning to explore in its unconventional roots and engage in its chaotic nature. Otherwise karate will be dishonored in its stature.

Its been a while and few months ago my mentor in Korean Karate left to a different town last second. We were supposed to teach a mix of TSD and TKD but he left and his master did not have time to take me in as a disciple and so I moved on to my online business as a point of focus. I have noticed that it seems like there is a lack of interest in learning Karate and maybe because rent has gone up, people have no money, busy with relationship but mostly working all day. It seems like people are frustrated with life and tired from work force. I am trying to learn Japanese again and my plan is to move to Japan and open a small non-profit dojo to teach karate and boxing as well. Of course its going to be a small town and not Tokyo but somewhere affordable so people are not living in an unaffordable dystopia. Any thoughts or recommendation?

Has anyone done this? No judgement, just wondering if anyone has been contacted by MMA gyms to teach them karate for short term basis or part time to help them see a different look than the typical Moo Thai style that is abundant in mma gyms. I am not sure if MMA is still as popular as it was in the 2000s but I think that there are more diverse styles because of some MMA outliers who use karate, kung fu or even judo as oppose to the classical MMA styles out there. Of course the dojos and MMA gyms may not always see eye to eye because of their different cultural presentation which presents MMA in a more spicy way while karate is more traditional in how it presents itself.