IronFistKempo

So much that I want to reply too that quoting is out of the question. 1st off on wado-ryu. I know the name was changed but I never studied wado, I do not mean what I said as a slant at all to the art tho. There are tons of Wado schools around my location, & none of them teach any aplication at all. My Style's kata system is quite different, but we use the heian & tekki katas along with unsu & kusanku all post blac belt. Students are required to create their own katas with bunkai before bb. the theory is that by creating their own katas they learn the workings of the technique on a more personal level. However, When the wado guys see us running a kata they're familiar withyet running with bunkai they want to learn it. 2ndly, the youtube clip is some oldschool point style and a good example of why early kickboxers were karate champs 3rdly I'm not talking about one style being better than the other, kickboxing better than point stye, or anything else. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT KARATE HAS BEEN ON THE DECLINE FOR A WHILLE AND IT'S BECAUSE THE GENERAL POPULATION WHO DOESN'T TRAIN KARATE BELIEVES IT DOESN'T WORK. THE SOLUTION TO THAT IS TO BRING KICKBOXING BACK INTO OUR STYLE BECAUSE KICKBOXING BRINGS PEOPLE IN THE DOOR. THOSE PEOPLE THEN LEARN KARATE. KB IS AN OUTGROTH OF KARATE & SHOULD BE PUT IN SEMICONTACT FORM INTO THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT. THE RULES ARE SIMILIAR ENOUGH TO POINT SPARRING THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. HOWEVER THE GAIN TO US IS THAT OUR ONCE HIGHLY RESPECTED ART WILL REBOUND AS THE OUTSIDE WORLD BECOMES INTERESTED IN US AGAIN, AND DOJO'S WON'T BE GOING OUT OF BUSINESS OR HAVING TO HIRE KICKBOXING INSTRUCTORS. 4thly, I'm not trying to talk bad about you guys. I have respect for all of you and consider the practioner of karate, be it shotokan, wado, goju, etc... to be part of an extended family. I'm concerned about our art. I advertise as "Kempo, Kickboxing, MMA" I used to advertise karate but ppl saw it & turned away, believing there is no way a karate based program could ever work. they don't know what kempo is, so it doesn't turn them away. PPl judge martial arts by the fighters they put out, since all they see of karate is point style it makes us look bad, they don't see it as fighting. It DOESNT MATTER THAT THERE IS MORE TO KARATE THAN COMPETITIVE FIGHTING IF WE CAN'T TEACH IT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO STUDENTS. We all know that you can't teach real karate to a 5 yr old, but how many of your dojo's are kept open soley on the basis of your kid's class??

99% of fighters I know don't. It's easy to say that, but the reality is that injuries happen frequently, and they sideline you from training. If you want to fight full contact you train smart. Either way, NOBODY seems to grasp onto what I'm saying. This isn't a kickboxing is better than karate thread for God's sake, it's a Karate needs kickboxing to survive thread. Not even full contact kickboxing, semicontact would be just fine...

I have several mated areas in my dojo, I use plain 'ol black duct tape to secure them together & cover the seams. Never had a problem with a toe getting caught. A quick & easy fix from walmart. Cheap too, $15 will buy you enough to cover 2k sq ft of matted area.

Again Throwdown, we disagree on very little. And I salute you for studing enshin, very strong stuff. Ive done KD fighting & it was brutal. It does matter if they pass your dojo, cuz if enough ppl do that then your dojo will close. And I agree, The UFC itself isn't a street fight, I knew of a guy who attempted a triangle choke on a friend of mine, got his head split open cuz my friend slamed him on the pavement as the guy was setting up the choke. Altho I should mention my friend studied judo for many years was quite familiar with the triangle, an untrained person wouldn't have known what to do. However, my point is what ppl percieve, they see the UFC as the ultimate proving ground for martial arts. My concern isn't for myself or my dojo. Our business is doing very well, as MMA increases our success increases. My concern is for OUR art. Karate is suffering, I think the re-implimation of Kickboxing could save it. As I stated earlier, a point fighter could easily become a kickboxer, it'll take a little time to learn to fight under different rules, but the two sports are very closely related. However, to the outsider, the one who's going to sign up & pay your bills, Point style looks like a joke & kickboxing looks like a fight.

1, I didnt debate anything about the differences in karate & kickboxing when it comes to point sparring.. and the sooner people just realize a round house is just a roundhouse or a snap kick is a snap kick, the sooner they can practice just that instead of worrying which style it comes from. I go to my class to learn to fight, if it came from kickboxing? fine. If it came from karate? fine. as long as it works and is effective because that is why we are there at the school. to learn to fight. I agree with you on that 100%. And in truth most if not all kickboxing techniques come from karate. Muay Thai aside there is no difference, they are the same darn thing. However, How many ppl like you, going to learn to fight, pass right by your dojo & go to the local kickboxing gym? My guess is the majority of them. And as someone who wants to learn to fight, wouldn't you rather have a more realistic competition in a tournament?

No, the reason why only kids are doing karate is because karate is looked at as a kids game. Kid's have been boxing for a lot longer than 20 years, and no one said boxing was a joke because of it. Boxing is still respected as a fighting style & looked at as a very important tool in MMA.

In many ways yes, & in some ways no. Kickboxing & karate use the same techniques, but the approach is different. Kickboxing, even in semi-contact, is results oriented much more so than point sparring. I've seen numerous ppl when point sparring matches by bouncing on one foot with their other foot held in the air, repeatedly flipping it in the air until it comes close enough to the other's head for a score. That's the way they learn to use their technique in a confrontation, & it's a waste of a kick. You're not going to damage anyone with it, you're just gonna knock yourself off balance & be wide open for a counter punch. It does matter in the grand scheme of things. It matters how karate is percieved by the outside world because our students come from the outside world. The more ppl think our style is worthless the less ppl come in the door. The more karate dojos close for good. It'll be a long slow dieing off of a truely great art.

Just realized I used the wrong quote. However, Most dojo's I observe (in my area mostly wado-ryu) don't use bunkai or oyo in their kata at all. I've taught dozens of wado-ryu black belts the bunkai to heian shodan because they never learned it at their home dojo. Also, wrestling is nothing like aikido. Not at all as close to each other as are karate & kickboxing. I go to a lot of tournaments, as a spectator sometimes, a trainer as other, and sometimes I'm just working it. I've seen the steady decline in numbers of adult competitors over the years. In order to make up the lost revenue I've seen promoters incorporate grappling in the tourneys. The last event I went to the adult grappling division was larger than the adult point sparring division. I'm seeing more & more kid's grappling too. Given the choice between jiujitsu & karate parrents are putting their kids into jiujitsu classes. I see a lot of kid's mma classes opening up. We need to face reality here, karate is on the decline and has been for years. Kickboxing was once a part of our art, if we desire to see our art revived and brought back to anywhere near it's former status then reincorporating kickboxing into our art is the way to go. Kickboxing also doesn't have to be full contact. In the kickboxing world semi-contact is becoming more & more common place. It's a different world now, MMA has changed the way the general population looks at martial arts. Martial arts are a wonderful way to self descovery & improvement, but they are also fighting styles. If they weren't then we wouldn't kick & punch. No one wants to learn a fighting style widely considered not to work. No one ever said kickboxing doesn't work, and no one ever will. We created it, we need to own it. This doesn't really affect me, I put out kickboxers and mma fighters regularly, but I'm in the vast minority here. Any karate instructor could train a kickboxer, but until it's reintroduced into the tournament circuits it'll remain an entity seperate from karate.

American full contact as well as international / low kick were born from karate. Savate pre existed this obviously but was then & is now fairly obscure. B4 the term kickboxing was popularized Muay Thai was known as Thai karate. Sanshou (Chinese) kickboxing was born of kung fu. I do not mean to offend, but to know the history of karate you should know that kickboxing is not diferent from karate, no diferent than is point sparring. Neither use the most efective attacks of karate (vital point striking, etc). I understand this can be a sensitive topic, but it is one that should be addressed. How many adult students now take up karate as opposed to learning a style of kickboxing? In my years of experience karate is viewed by the outside world as a kid's activity. I've seen several dojo's bring in Muay Thai instructors for their adults class as karate no longer brings ppl in. Why? Doesn't karate use kicks & punches & knees? Why should a karate instructor have to hire a kickboxing instructor? That to me is offensive. I see it all over the place, the dojo owner teaches a kids class & then leaves so the MT & BJJ guys take over. Our style is dieing, being killed by a sport that we had a HUGE part in creating. I quit using the term karate years ago, it was only then that my adults class really took off. I've made a life study out of the history & culture of karate yet inorder to stay in business I have to teach it as ryukyu kempo & never mention the word karate. It is sad in my opion. Very very sad.

As I stated earlier, kickboxing was born from karate. That's why it was known early on as full contact karate. The early kickboxing fights were sanctioned by the professional karate association. Kickboxing uses the same techniques & target areas as does karate point sparring. I wonder how familliar you are with the history of karate... Karate is an okinawan martial art, in Okinawa karate fighting consist of two main types, kyokushin style bare knuckle full contact, & bogu kumite, which is like a hybrid of kickboxing & MMA. In bogu fighters wear either kickboxing or kendo gear & go full contact with low kicks, knees, take downs, & submissions. The okinawan karate came from shaolin kempo/chaun fa/Kung fu. The fighting style of which is sanshou. A form of kickboxing using takedowns, low kicks, and knees.

When kickboxing got it's start it was known as full contact karate. Those days the kb champs were all karate champs, kb fighters wore their black belts onto the ring, kickboxing wasn't treated as a seperate martial art like it is now. I wonder how you guys feel about the split between the two? Now kickboxing is pretty much the domain of Muay Thai, itself no longer the martial art it once was with it's own "kata" and traditions. I never really understood why karate & kickboxing weren't still joined as closely as they once were, but I can't help but feel nostalgic (sp?) about the old days.

Yes, it's bare knuckle full contact, but no head punches However I've fought a few matches & it was 10x more punishing than my Thai fights. That said, mostly you'd have to go to NY or Cali for good kyokushin tourneys. I wonder why more tourneys don't do continous? We tried at marty eubanks last tournament in bowling green but the turn out was really low in that division. Perhaps it's not as popular as I would imagine.

Wow, u guys are all being very helpful, thanks! Still not finding much in the tn, al, ky area, so I may just bite the bullet & tell the guys they either gotta get in the ring or go for point style. I'm really only familiar with itf tkd style point sparring tho, any of the karate styles allow for face contact (face shield)?

Thanks, the open's a bit on the expensive side tho. I'd really like to find things a little more low key than that if I could. My mma guys get to fight about once a month if thy want too, I feel bad that my non fighters never really get to compete in striking unless they fight, & it's tuff to be an investment banker or a school teacher & explain your black eye.

Is there any kind of online resource I can look at for those? Do they allow head punching in aau & Olympic?