tenshinka

Hmm...that is most interesting...It seems as though we have another Tae Keuk Kwon / So Rim Jang Kwon issue at hand....In anycase, my first and only lead would be to looking into Itosu's Rohai Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan as it is the only series of three I am familar with. We can only assume KJN Hwang would have used those forms, as his original forms had original names (Chil Sung, Yuk Rho, Hwa Sun, Ship Dan Kum etc)

Well, I think you may be looking for some time The reason? There is no rohai 2 & 3 in the MDK lineage. I assume you are looking for these forms based on the list of hyung in Hwang Kee's TSDSBD Volume 1? If so, you should know that Hwang Kee did not practice all of those forms, but rather it is a list of forms he knew of in Tang Soo Do (Karate). The Rohai 2 and 3 were actually developed by Itosu Yasutsune as Rohai Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan. Hope that helps...

Nim could be very closely equated to the use of San. The difference being that NIM is an honorific to all titles, not simply to those related to martial arts.

Sorry for the late reply, Joesteph. Actually you DO use nim when you are referring to a person of higer rank/position than you. For instance I might approach my instructor as "Kwan Jang Nim", where as I would not refer to myself as 'Sa Bom Nim' but rather simply, as 'Sa Bom'. An example would be signing a letter, where this instance would perhaps appear as: Sincerely, --John Doe, Sa Bom Nim on its own accord has no meaning, and is not to be used singularly. It only has meaning when attached to a title. You might equate it to approaching your instructor as "Honorable Teacher," versus "Yo, teach!". Hope that helps

Both RO and NO are correct.

OK folks...You all are missing some crucial aspects to this puzzle. Like english, the Korean language is filled with homonyms. SA does mean "fourth" in Sino-Korean counting (四) the hanja is the same for net which means "four". SA ALSO means teacher/master, and the hanja is different (師), for that matter SA can also mean scholar, again the character changes (士). The list goes on, and on. The fact that the title Sa Bom Nim is attached to the 4th dan, has only coincidental significance with the fact that SA is synonymous in english with both fourth and teacher. In looking at the characters for Sa Bom (師傅) it is totally apparent that the translation is "Teacher-Father", Nim being an honorific to the title. The significance of the titles you reference (Jo Kyo, Kyo Sa, Sa Bom) is only in relation to your style SBDMDK, and some variants there of (TSD). In many KMA's the title has nothing to do with age, and strictly is used in reference to a persons rank. For instance: 1st Dan - Jo Kyo Nim 2nd Dan - Kyo Sa Nim 3rd Dan - Pu Sa Bom nim 4th Dan - Sa Bom Nim 5th Dan-7th Dan - Kwan Jang Nim 8th-9th Dan - Chong Kwan Jang Nim/Choong Jae Nim etc. Very few groups in the KMA world attach a title with an age. You either ARE or ARE NOT deserving of a rank/title/position IMHO. And yes, FWIW does mean "For What Its Worth". While I'm at it, Kwan Jang does NOT mean "Master" or "Grand Master" (though it is usually used to refer to folks holding those ranks). It actually means "School Director". Kwan of course means school, institute, etc (館) and Jang means director/owner. In SBDMDK the current head of the Moo Duk Kwan is by default, the Kwan Jang (in this case, HC Hwang), in the Mi Guk Kwan its Charles Ferraro, in the Moo Do Kwan its Andy Ahpo, etc. etc. etc. In other arts, Kwan Jang simply refers to a Master rank, and in some cases anyone instructor with a school. The title is not specific to martial arts, and in Korea is often used in reference to owners of hakwon (cram schools, alternate title being Won Jang) as well as owners of other types of business or institutions.

Chung simply means "chief" or "senior" (in context). Sa is teacher, and Nim is of course, an honorific. Cung Sa Nim thus equates to "Honorable Chief Teacher). Master Paone is a world class TSD instructor, FWIW.

As I posted earlier: Ryu does not in any way, shape, or form translate as way or type. The character actually represents a flowing stream of water. The philosophical implication vary from person to person. But "Way" is for sure DO [道], and Path is RO [路] (both in Korean and Japanese). There is only one school of PaSaRyu in Wisconsin. Central Wisconsin Martial Arts Institute. http://www.cwmai.com/ NOTE: Admins & Mods: I included the Korean/Japanese Hanja/Kanji above as reference to the romanization to the terms in question, as this is not always clear.

It is available direct from the US Soo Bahk Do Federation, for an outrageous amount...Like $150 (to non-members)...Its SOOOO not worth it.

heck out the Songahm poomse of the ATA...Those are some well designed forms. Also GM Kang Rhee of PaSaRyu TKD has modified the original TSD/KSD hyung with very deep stances, and various kicks that make the forms quite aesthetically pleasing, and very TKD'ish displaying the advanced johk sool of TKD... fwiw, --josh

I'd been thinking about getting this book, Josh, and when I saw your recommendation I just opened up another window online and ordered it from the Federation. You wont regret it Joe It is by far one of the very best publications the federation has out...Now if they ever publish Mu Do Chor Hak lol Take Care, --josh

As I understand it, there was a Korean government pressure to make all act as or become one as a "national unity" political move. I know that the Moo Duk Kwan actually sued all the way up to the Korean Supreme Court just to stay alive. You betcha Joe! It was trying to create a strong central movement, for political purposes (and to have something similar to what the Japanese had, I believe). General Choi used all of his political might to strong arm everyone into joining the KTA, thus almost everyone did...With the exception of Moo Duk Kwan, and thus the Daehan Soo Bahk Do Hoi...If you dont have a copy yet, get a copy of GM Hwang Kee's 50th Anniversary History of the Moo Duk Kwan...its a great read, from the "other side" of the story

Frankly, I have always thought the whole "unification" of the kwans, and the current unification efforts between Kukki TKD, and ITF as a poor political move, without much thinking of the "martial" aspects involved. My of the Kwans had unique, and now hard to find material (much of which is now only being practiced in the Pa Sa Ryu, Chayon Ryu, and by old MDK people... Its like taking Coca-Cola, Sprite, Dr. Pepper, Pepsi, and Mountain Dew (all of which have their own unique flavors and merit), and then deciding to mix them all into one soft drink...Its just nonsensical.

It can be found "streaming" online...

Why do feel the need to belong to an association? If you are happy with what you do, just teach, and practice...