mel

I've always had the personal view that all the kata present in the works... - KARATE DO KYOHAN(The Master Text) - KARATE JUTSU(The Original Teachings of Master Funakoshi) ...were quite sufficient. Anyway, just my personal opinion I was just blown away with excitement and much satisfaction when I saw the old black and white shots of Shotokan katas being performed for the first time some time ago

I started with Goju, but I ended up with Shotokan and its emphasis on straight lines and that old principle of.....'one strike/one kill'. I just have great admiration for this style Goju can get quite circular, whilst experience with Seido and Kyokushin showed much emphasis on sporting attitudes and spirit. Sporting competitions just never found a place for me. I also tried to take up Systema to improve my Shotokan, but joining the 2 different forms of training was just not going to be a compatible marriage. For example, the Systema classes I attended did not have long-reaching or long-range punches or kicks, and there was no talk that I could recall of such things as using hip movements. On the other hand I often got into strife with my old Goju teacher because my arms were never in the full stretch position(for punches) during kihon waza, and other parts of the training I'd recommend Shotokan for anyone with an interest in not only the martial art, but the history and culture of Japan. Karate was an Okinawan art(and many thanks to the Chinese, of course), but combined with studies of the HAGAKURE, Bushido, and others...one ends up seeing something of that old but beautiful and elegant samurai world and culture, for without which, Japan would never have become an economic power house of our modern and advanced Western civilization. No disrespect meant to the Okinawans by not giving them enough credits in this posting, but I do believe that the sons and daughters of Nippon have always had something good going for them, and are quite acceptable to emulate today

A question please...if you follow Zen, would you be held back in taking up the more Taoist martial arts Bagua and Taichi? Or, if you're a Taoist, would you have hesitation in taking up something like Hung Gar, or Wing Chun? Do forgive and grant me patience if you please, and it may look as if I have a little too much time on my hands by this posting...but it's just that I've been rather curious about this matter. I did come across a website(of which I no longer have access, or knowledge of it's location) some time ago which claimed that some of the old Shaolin monks may have also taken up not only Taichi, but also Bagua-zhang...but I wondered if this was historically accurate

Being a dayshift worker, that means my classes are in the evening after my shift. If I wasn't doing karate or any martial art, I'd be a chef. In fact, my current hero is Po's father in the film KungFu Panda. I thought it was Tai Lung(which made me take a very brief and fleeting interest in kung fu, especially Hung Gar), but highly doubtful. In fact, I'd love to be a noodle chef's apprentice, just like the pre-Dragon Warrior Po. Oh heck, I may even want to learn how to make my own tofu In any case, my love for karate had been burning within me for years, since I was a child, and it's unfortunate that I was able to start training only from adulthood onwards when I left home, as my parents could not afford to send me to classes. Right now, Zen and Shotokan are my passion, but I may take up taichichuan one day, as my feeling of connection not only with Japan but also with China(and maybe even the Korean peninsula to a limited extent) is quite strong..especially with my face being of the Southern Chinese variety

Jiyu-kumite training(including fullcontact without protection) as normally done in karate classes is ok, but being able to take 'empty hand' punishment in the dojo is no 100% guarantee of street survival. It would be nice to get up and walk after being struck ready for more attacks, but crawling and/or staggering(if you're still breathing) after a multiple armed(heavy blunt, and/or sharp weapons) attack are not uncommon out in the streets. If you want something purely for the street, head off towards Krav Maga or its distant cousin, Systema My experience was with Systema(and some unfortunate and shameful bar-room incidents), and there's a lot of fullcontact there. At the same time, there's a pervading philosophy to this day from it's head instructor all the way from Canada that says, one does not destroy(accidentally, or intentionally) one's fellow students. In the Systema class I was in, this point was emphasized many times by the instructor(trained in Canada) whether training 'empty hand', or with weapons. The fullcontact as such was important because the one receiving the blow had to have something to work with, and I'd often be told to make more contact It all depends on the individual on how effective he's going to be out in the streets. During Systema training, there were more than a few times when I was able to attack even the more experienced from various angles they couldn't see or anticipate during multiple-attack training(all the class members against one person). Survival is not a matter of pride, but luck. One cannot always avoid 100% a blind-side I didn't stay with Systema, and I went back to Shotokan. Shotokan may be considered by many as far from practical street-wise, but such views are irrelevant to those like myself who have a passion for Japanese culture, and Shotokan as the world knows it today can hardly be called Okinawan(let alone Chinese, albeit a corrupted version). But...I enjoy Shotokan. Is it effective? Who cares! It connects me with a history, and culture. I learnt a long time ago that constantly worrying about what may happen in a dark alley or deserted street/road just takes too much of my pleasure time

You should look into these incidences of injuries that you discussed. Do these things happen weekly at these schools? ------------------------------------------------------------ MEL: They took place mainly at the Goju dojo I first went to. I can't speak of other dojos that I went to after I left that one concerning injuries, but bully-boy tactics of sorts were also apparently happening in Kanazawa-sensei's Shotokan organization. I took it as a warning when one of Kanazawa's colour belt junior students told me that respect, diplomacy, and politeness would fly out the window if the seniors pushed their luck in any of the Shotokan dojos --------------------------------------------------------------------- Have you actually had much classroom experiences with these instructors? -------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: Yes, and what I've seen what they've done amongst themselves during jiyu-kumite. I was NOT impressed by the behaviour ---------------------------------------------------------------- These are things that I believe you should look into. Go to the classes, and try to partake in some of them. This will give you a feel for what to expect. -------------------------------------------------- MEL: There's a local JKA class near my work. I'll check it out when things stabilize at work To everyone, I offer my greetings and give thanks for the welcome Thanks for your time Mel

Reading your reply, made me re-read Mel's original post. MEL:...(*smiles/peace*)...... ----------------------------------------------------------- I must admit, I did not interpret from it that he/she was 70 years old, but maybe I got that wrong. Mel, if your out there, are you able to confirm your age? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I'm only 45 years old

Martial arts especially Karate are striking arts and the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. I agree with everyone regards to the fact that you want an art to work on -------------------------------------------- MEL: Yes I agree ------------------------------------------------------ but don't know which direction to go to. -------------------------------------------------- MEL: Karate ------------------------------------------ I would recommend Wado Ryu, this is a blend of Shotokan and Jujitsu, working more on the lines of Sabaki, Body rotation. As you are 70 I would think this would be good for you. We have a 72 year old in the class I attend and he does well, being a Brown belt. --------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I will also consider Wado, depending on the travelling distances involved. For the moment, Shotokan seems more common in my locality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please Mel, don't get drawn into sigining any 'Membership' agreements until YOU are happy with the style - I wish you'd have asks us all long ago - I would have advised you against Kyokushin. Although I personally love the style and practice Ashihara karate which is an 'offshot' of kyokushin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I was merely thinking 'the grass was greener on the other side'...at the time ---------------------------------------------------------- Muay Thai/kickboxing are about stamina and work well in the ring but not against street fighters unless you are excellent in it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ MEL: They tried to get me to move like a kick boxer during classes in the Seido style, and I basically refused. During full sparring, I move in the very old style more common with the likes of Nakayama-sensei, partly because as I can't for the life of me relate boxer training and ring-time with being hit and grabbed from behind especially when I'm doing security work late at night in the dark, or in rock concerts --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karate kata bunkai is what you need. Sparring - unless you are competing - forget it. Karate is not about how 'hard' you are it is about the weak defending themselves from the agressors and muggers etc ---------------------------------------------------- MEL: Bunkai was the one thing no one could provide for me properly, and Sport Karate had never been acceptable to me...but that's just me, of course ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are loads of styles out there that you could try but you gotta think about time - if you wanna learn quick, Krav Maga is a good system but it doesn't give you the same 'feeling' as karate. ------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: 1. I've got the patience to learn tradition (as I prefer tradition) but it does help if the instructor can give me ideas on where it's all headed. Unfortunately, what I got where boasts of knowledge of secret arts which apparently will be revealed in time 2. I think you've hit the nail on the head above...because it does not have the same feeling as karate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tai Chi (Chen Style) is also very good but this also takes time to learn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I keep telling people that I'll be open-minded about kung-fu or even taekwondo, but it's not easy(*grin*) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If there are any Martial arts shows that you can get to which have Multistyle exhibitions then I would go to them so you can see what goes on -------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I agree. You're right

Yeah, I second the others, you're best bet is to find someone and train reguarly. ------------------------------------------------------- MEL: Actually, the main aim for me was to enter classes again, and still is ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Books are for reference and learning things you may not be regularly exposed to. Beside, even if you come across something you want to work on, how are you going to practice without someone to train with. --------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I agree -------------------------------------------------------------------- As for injuries, they happen. Espically in systems with hard training methods. It shouldn't turn you off, just accept it as part of what you signed on for. And, as stated, serious injuries are fairly rare. After years of doing this with some pretty good intensity and regularity, I can recall only two incidents that caused me lost time at work. That's not bad. Now, my time off the mat was a bit higher but that's to be expected. -------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: My issue on this is that I just never developed the habit of collecting injuries that were the result of intention as opposed to accidental ------------------------------------------------------------ I'd suggest not to be too worried about what you'll be able to do at 70. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: My concern was falling into fighting habits more suitable for a 20 year old full of muscles and ego, rather than that of someone much older and wiser. Proper technique was what I always had in mind ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Train with what you feel serves your needs best now. Soak it in as long as possible. When your physiology needs to adapt to a new form or change you methods of training, you can do so. None of us will be able to make contact as we age like we do now. I've already had to modify how I train. I'm not even that aged, but I don't recover from heavy contact like I used to. This needs to be spaced out now. Smarter not harder. I have no doubt that in 15 years I'll have to modify further or explor other regualar training options. But I'll still have all those years of experiance under me that I'm accruing now. That won't go away. So don't stress that factor just yet. Find an instructor you like, teaching what you see to serve your needs best and dive in. Then use privates and books to suppliment the experiance you're gaining. Probibly would work the best ------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I agree with you

Books are good, but they don't teach the lttle stuff like making sure hips in the right position for kicks, kata, hand techniques and even throws (for self-defense) which is so important. And does your book give you a partner to work with? MEL: I agree with you, and yes the book KARATE DO KYOHAN required partner work. Unfortunately, I was lucky to find only one person (when he was here in Australia) who was suitable for training, and he was a native of Okinawa itself. All others I came across were too busy with their own personal glories The young Japanese national above thought we were only going to do basics and pre-arranged sparring at the most. We did full-sparring, and yes I did get hit hard. There was however, much respect between the 2 of us. It's a pity he's no longer around

Whilst I dont advocate throwing beginners in at the deep end, Shiai/Jiyu Kumite whether it be full or semi contact, is a vital part of your Karate training and for many styles (like mine), it is an essential part of our conditioning as well. -------------------------------------------------------- MEL: 1. Part of Sanchin training involved being hit and slapped around a fair bit to test the tension of the body. I had no complaint about that 2. Accidental blows during jiyu-kumite, I'll waive...intentional, no ---------------------------------------------------------------- That said, giving you the benefit of the doubt you may have just been unlucky with the few experiences that you have had. It could down to the instructors in those clubs being thoughtless knuckleheads maybe. More and more these days it seems that instructors substitute their lack of technical knowledge with fighting for the sake of fighting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: How true...which was why I took my money back to the bank, and spent around $50 on a book, and did katas, basics, and bag work on my own -------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, I am not a great believer in self teaching from books or videos either. I agree that reference material is useful, particularly for people who already have a good basic grasp of the art they are studying, but this should always be used as a companion to dojo training and not as a substitute IMO. In short, as has been said before, budo arts like karate are forged in the furness of the Dojo. It is the tireless, exhausting, bruising training under the watchfull eye of a knowledgeable instructor (who has been along the path you are walking) that will eventually shape you into a karate-ka. But again welcome to the forums ------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I fully agree with the above, and thanks for the welcome

With respect, it sounds like you have no idea what you really want. ------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: It's Karate that I've always wanted ----------------------------------------------------------------- You talk about being upset ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: The word 'upset' sounds a little strong. I was however, concerned ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ with being struck too hard in the past. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: There's a big difference between accidental, and intentional blows. Otherwise, I have no real issues with accidents as such ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you talk about wanting to take Kickboxing, a sport with the sole purpose of knocking out the opponent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: The above was suggested and did look interesting, but that was as far as it got with me. I have a preference for things to do with Japan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Additionally, you want to just do sparring once a month in private lessons. You're gonna get the snot beat out of you! I say this because anyone who only wants a private lesson once per month, with no other supplemental training, will not be taken as a serious student. In all reality, a respectable instructor would deny your request and certainly would not spar with you for quite some time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: 1. In the Goju school, the Japanese teacher banned all below the most senior of brown belts from using leg techniques 2. Except for Kyokushin, I was lucky to get jiyu-kumite even just once a month in the Shotokan or Seido schools I attended -------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, it's important to realize that when you are practicing an art that has punches and kicks coming toward you very quickly, you're gonna get hit every once in a while. When you do...it hurts! I've been practicing martial arts for 23 years now. I regularly go home with bumps and bruises. I've taken knees to the face and had broken ribs. However, in the grand scheme of things, that's not that bad over a 23 year period. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: Then perhaps we should all be beaten (at any body part, no exceptions whatsoever) with baseball bats, wine bottles, heavy chains, and anything else on hand during class. We could then get used to such to the point that such blows would not affect us in any way in the middle of a street fight...yes? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In Shotokan we always attempted to control shots to the head. However, the body was fair game. We would blast the body hard. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: Whenever you are in a street-fight, do you ever ask your opponent to hit you only in certain body parts? ----------------------------------------------------------- It was even more brutal when I trained under anyone from Japan. Remember, they like to espouse the warrior mentality, fighting through pain and overcoming adversity. And don't get me started on Kyokushin! They are just killers...killers with AMAZING karate! But you're gonna take a hit in their classes. --------------------------------------------------------------- MEL:....No pain, no gain....I wish you well in this......but I respectfully disagree... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- My point here is not to discourage you, rather to inform you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL:...which is why we're all on the net....to discuss... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Karate, you're gonna get hit every once in a while. If you are not ready to accept that, perhaps you are choosing the wrong art form ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I had no issue with that. However, accidental is different to intentional

Greetings to all Mel is my name and I'm calling from Melbourne Australia. I'm new here. In over 20 years, I have done some karate classes in both Shotokan and Goju. Unfortunately, it has not borne much fruit for me as I had been discouraged (from taking further classes) by the constant lack of regard for safety by many a student, especially the senior levels that I had to train with. One senior and respected female black-belt was kicked so hard and fast twice I was amazed her ovaries were still functioning to allow her to give birth. A young male brown belt from the same school was kicked so badly by a senior black-belt on the knee that he was no longer able to do zenkutsu or kiba dachi properly anymore. I on the other hand had been hammered on the tapering bone below the sternum I'm amazed it didn't break That was Goju, under the supposed watchfull eyes of a reputable born, bred, raised and educated Japanese shihan. I switched to Shotokan just to see what it was like. I didn't see any problem, but one of the regular students in the new school spoke to me of the same carelessness taking place. Foolish that I was, I tried Kyokushin and lasted one class after having paid both a monthly and yearly membership I tried venturing into something Chinese and had one Pakua Chang private lesson, but I already had a taste for karate, and a taste that will not go away to this very day. So, for most of these years since the early 90s, I had been doing the kihon waza and katas all on my own whether they were Shotokan, or Goju. It was just enough to save me from 3 fights that happened within one week from the same dangerous drunk. My left arm and both legs were both pinned down but I managed to bleed his cranial area quite a fair bit with my punches whilst losing absolute fear of anything. That experience however was with a drunk, and I personally don't know to this day how I would go against an armed multiple attack, which is quite common where I am. For one, I've never been hit with a whisky bottle on the head and I imagine that in itself could kill me if done properly from behind The ugly side of human nature aside as described above, I truly love karate and much else about Japanese culture. I can take karate (and Zen) everywhere with me but not something like jiu-jitsu, aikido, wing-chun, or muay-thai. Many people tell me that I should take up full-contact kick-boxing if I really want to learn how to fight. Sounds fair, but what happens when you get old? I don't know if I'll live that long, but I'd hate to have to take on someone in the muay-thai style when I'm already 70 years old. My experience above also told me that one improves in the kwoon/dojang/dojo when one actually trains there, instead of being in hospital for 11 months of the year because some wannabe 'bruce lee' considered it his right to use you as his own personal cement bag during kumite So, what exactly have I been doing most of this time? I'll tell you, and a lot of people will laugh. I've basically been guiding myself with karate books and videos, especially the manual KARATE DO KYOHAN. I spoke to infamous instructor Pat Macarthy over the phone and asked if he can recommend any reputable karate school (or teacher) this side of my world, and he said there was not one he could think of after I've explained of my experiences and mishaps My thinking is this: the old Okinawan karateka must have trained in secret and supported each other. Within any one group, they all knew that they had to stick together and help each other out, but which did not include turning each other into invalids for life with any one blow To give me a slightly better edge than what I've had in the last couple of decades, I've been planning on having private lessons on a once-a-month basis which would involve a lot of kumite (during that lesson), whilst the rest of the month would basically be on my own with my own training. Most formal karate classes that I had entered centered on warm-ups, lots of runnings and push-ups(and various other fitness stuff), basics(moving or stationary), katas, and pre-arranged sparring. Except for the last one, I can basically do the rest on my own Once-a-month (private lessons) because that's all I can afford, and also because this period is something I want to use to see what my reaction is like during kumite. Sounds stupid? Yep. But, I've also been checking out various classes available, as they're more economical than private lessons plus the added bonus of varied fighting levels one comes across. A Japanese lady I've come across questioned my intention of going to her Shotokan school because of my one arthritic knee, but I'll just have to see. I really can't keep training on my own. A young Chinese girl recommended that I take up TaiChi instead because of my condition. Well.....(TaiChi?....I'm not sure...) Do pardon the rant, and I'm glad to be a member of the forum Thanks for your time Mel