Kata is a waste of time

Kata takes a long time to learn and does not improve balance, breathing any more that other technics that take alot less time, Anybody that practices Karate and nothing else (or any one art for that matter) is limiting them selfs, sure it is hard to get up the ranks and I admire people that have for there dedication, but in 10 years you are not a good a fighter as someone that really fights, learn the kicks and punches and throws and graples from as many arts as you can, use that stuf that works and throw away the rest, I belive that someone who has practiced a mix of say, bjj, mauy thai for 2 years, 6 hours a week, would destroy any some one that does pure karate for 6 years.

just my view. and your view will all be valued.

_________________

"perfection, is something we all get closer too with training, but you will never get there and untill you accept this your mind will be limited in what you can achive"

- Dave

[ This Message was edited by: dafabe on 2002-04-09 06:56 ]

There is your problem. Karate is not about fighting. The Kata is deeply important. In fact much more so than any punch, kick, throw, break, lock, grab, etc. etc. etc.

If you want to learn to fight take up Boxing. Something that is about fighting.

Kata builds speed,power, balance, and techinque. No its not the same as trading blows. However nothign is. Again if learning to fight is all you want to do get out of yoru karate class.

Have trouble learning your kata in class Dafabe?

But seriously, why spend that time learning 101 different ways to throw the same kick or punch?

I think in this conversation, it is important to seperate the art, the "standard" training methods used in the art, and the practitioner of the art.

What if in the 10 years of karate training you mention, I do "really fight" and take everything that works, and train hard, and take throws and locks and fun stuff from the kata and learn to apply it, and strike the heavy bag and makiwara hard, and learn all the pressure/vital points, and always consider effectiveness in reality instead of just competition "point scoring" moves? Think that I won't be a good fighter because I call what I've done "empty hand" instead of "Muay Thai" or whatever?

I think that with effectively 1 year of BJJ (which is just another school of ju-jitsu, really), and 1 year of Muay Thai you'd also need a healthy dose of natural skill to defeat a dedicated 6 year karateka...

[ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-09 07:27 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-04-09 07:45 ]

that has clear up my confusion thanx, I was not dising Karate, perhaps The subject title i used was misleading.

thanx for you views

Yeah to come to a karate messagboard and say kata is not important and expect ot get a backing is like going to the pope and saing the bible is not important. Just won't float.

I agree with Taikudo-ka. I did 1 years of Ju-Jitsu and maybe 6 months of Thai boxing. I think I can hold my own with anyone on the ground EXCEPT a person who has trained full tiem in Ju-Jitsu for a few years. Plus my standup is better thanks tot he Thai.

Karate has its weak points but so does everything else. Again Karate is not about fighting but a way of living. The Kata teaches that once you understand them.

"If you want to learn to fight take up Boxing. Something that is about fighting. "

I dunno... personally I think boxing is one of the more sport oriented martial arts out there... good hand techniques but limited and very "sporting"... and the "boxing punch"... doesn't that lead to broken hands when done bare-knuckled?

I agree that karate is not just about fighting... But I think it's misleading to suggest it has nothing to do with fighting. Indeed, my instructor has stressed that what we are doing IS an art of fighting. (and thus be careful)

Not that I can't already see weak points, but maybe one day I can solve them. Interestingly, karate was originally all about borrowing bits form here and there - white crane, monk fist, tiger style, native Okinawa te, etc. Bits from ju-jitsu, judo and other Chinese Kung-Fu styles as well. A good portion of Mas Oyama's Kyokushin must have been formed in his early street fighting days. Some of the other "old masters" like Choki Motobu were renowned street fighters in their day, so what they taught can't have been all tradition and kata... they weren't all like Funakoshi...

I think Oyama became a kata convert much later in life...

Yeah I agree about Boxing. I use it to make the point that all it was about was fighting. It is a poor Martial Art IMO. Leads to broken finger and hands as you pointed out.

Even with Thai there is some focus on history and art. Boxing is just based on fighting. No real focus for inner or personal development.

No karate is about fighting but it is not its main goal. If you are in a karate class to learn to fight you are there for the wrong reasons. You shoudl be in a karate class to learn how not to fight. Meaning avoiding situations and controling emotions.

I belive that someone who has practiced a mix of say, bjj, mauy thai for 2 years, 6 hours a week, would destroy any some one that does pure karate for 6 years.

Or maybe this fighter gets something in his eye just as he begins the fight with the Karate student; and in that instant a powerful punch drives the bone in his nose through his head and he dies on the spot...

Other then the art they practiced there are many more important factors that determine the better fighter, or who comes out victorious.

[ This Message was edited by: Jiggy9 on 2002-04-09 08:50 ]

Kata is not a waste of time. For beginners, in kata you learn how to punch and kick. Maybe its hard to learn but nothing is easy. For the advance student, kata is a way to refine a technique because there is always room for improvement. If you think that kata is a waste of time, don't throw away your money in Karate. Learn Muay Thai instead.

To be a great fighter, one does not only depend on kata. So to say that kata is a waste of time is nonsense. There is a tremendous number of external and interanal variables that come into play in a great fighter.

Not to beat a dead horse......but if ya wanna be a fighter then take up an art that simply focuses on fighting. If you want to develop mentally, physically, and spiritually then study any other form of karate/M.A. that offers more than one dimension.

For some being one dimensional is fine, for others, training in the M.A. is a life long exploration. In the end whether you have 10 years of formal training under your belt in karate, or 6 months training in BJJ/Muay Thai, if all things are equal then the most determined person will prevail. But also remember this, things are not always equal in life and seldom rarely is.....you will never know what it is you face until your in the mix, ie multiple friends, weapons(guns, knives,etc.), your level of intoxication, and so on. Just food for thought

Oh, in respects to Katas, IMO I think it is of value in your training as a martial artist!!!