RW

having practiced one of the 'kempo' styles for several years, getting my shodan, and having done some research, I have some negative things to say about kempo/kenpo... It's basically the wild west. If you are a westerner that wants to open his own karate school, but don't have the necessary credentials in a traditional karate style, BOOM, just call it kempo/kenpo karate, add your personal variation and off you go! This is why there are so many styles out there. American kempo, American kenpo, ed parker's kenpo, tracy kenpo, shaolin kempo, shaolin kenpo (yes, there is a shaolin kenpo that is not shaolin kempo, and there is an american kempo and an american kenpo), 'shaolin kenpo karate', etc etc etc What's more just because you're in, say, a shaolin kempo karate school in location it doesn't mean you know any of the kata taught at a different SKK dojo owned by somebody else. While you can find the same kata at a shotokan karate school in MA and in OR, and maybe even some common katas across real karate style (e.g. you will have heian nidan in several different karate styles), the guy doing "the same" style of kempo 20 miles from you is doing a kata called "screaming chicken" while you're learning "kenpo long set 1" and the guy across the state line is learning "kata 1". If you try to dig into the history of these schools they all go back to hawaii, where the descendent of an ancient japanese clan centuries ago developed a unique martial arts style based on kung fu cough cough uh, I mean, chuan fa (totally different! ) , that then was imported to hawaii, where it mixed with "american street fighting" to become kempo as we know it. Then it became popular in continental US. But in reality, these guys use words like kata, kumite, dojo and they wear karate gi (sometimes they're black! you see, totally different ) and they still teach you the same moves. They may call it "front kick", but it's a mae geri. They may call it "thrust punch", but it's a tate tsuki. They may call it a "front punch" but it's a tsuki. Oh, and the zenkutsu dachi? Just call it "half moon stance", it sounds good . You get the idea. It then doesn't help that often their kata are clearly repurposed karate kata. No, they have no Taikyoku Shodan ( ) they're not karate!!! They have a kempo kata (totally different, guys, trust me), with a totally different name (1-pinan), that has nothing to do with it and no resemblance at all ( ) : Even their advanced katas can be repurposed katas... look up stature of the crane. Does it look familiar? It's Rohai! How can this "ancient kung fu based japanese style combined with american street fighting" have mostly karate moves and even some repurposes karate kata? I think you see where I am going with this. I could open a school tomorrow, call it "kempo 6.0" or "kempo 2.1) (there is a kempo 5.0, after all) or "samurai kenpo fu" (there is a "shaolin kempo karate", after all) and have kata with names like "screaming chicken" and "stripes of the cheetah" and nobody would do a thing about or or call me out on it. And if I open the dojo in a wealthy suburb and offer tons of kid's activities that idea could probably succeed.

as a grappling art, BJJ can get away with things that a striking art such as karate can't. In BJJ you can spar and spar and spar as close as possible to a real "fight" (in which only grappling is allowed) and it's safe and there's less risk of injury. Imagine if karate had full contact sparring only... there would be a bunch of busted noses and split lips, not to mention black eyes. You can judge grading in BJJ by how well students perform in "fights" (rolling). They do it every day. You'd need to have full contact fights every day in karate too to be able to judge skill. At that point, kata would fade away too, since there is no incentive to learn then, you might as well just become great at full contact sparring since that's all it takes to get a black belt.

interesting question. In a way, karate has already evolved, and it became something other than karate. Full contact karate practitioners like Thundefoot Wallace and Joe Lewis took their karate and engaged in full contact fights with less rules, and on time this karate became kickboxing. By kickboxing I mean the original American Kickboxing of the 70s. In the end this ended looking more like boxing with karate kicks than karate. Then American Kickboxing evolved too to include clinch, leg kicks, etc nd now it looks a lot like muay thai. karate combat is an effort to bring full contact fights to karate while also keeping it like karate, so it has a very specific ruleset. In a way, this is also an evolution of karate, and who knows how karate combat will look 10 years from now. so the original karate styles, such as shotokan, will stay traditional, because that's what differentiates them from things such as kickboxing. I'd say the original styles will also evolve, while staying highly traditional. How many schools in the west still use the old school workout gear used by the okinawans? (like those jugs they would lift, or those cement spheres with a metallic tube in the middle)? Would any sensei recommend not using a punching bag and using the makiwara only? This is in its own way, evolution

As much as I love karate, is it really the best art to learn for self defense? Someone can defend himself far better with 6 months of boxing than 2 years of karate. The karate path is decidedly slower, harder to master. Muay Thai may take longer than boxing, but it takes less time than karate too. Good karate schools are hard to find nowadays too. The local "Tim's family karate and bushido" school at the strip mall will probably have people doing kata and some drills and moves (e.g. punches from horse stance) 60% of the time, 10% point sparring and the rest is calisthenics. I see karate more as a system that helps people of all walks of life stay healthy (because it's a full body workout), have some structure and discipline in their life, and pick up some self defense along the way. Karate is more about the journey, the path, if you will, in my opinion. One of its significant advantages is that people with jobs and family can practice it without the fear of showing up to meetings or seeing one's kids with a black eye and a busted lip, this may not be the case with the likes of boxing and muay thai

I have tremendous respect for Lyoto. By the way, he was my favorite UFC fighter for a long, long time. I basically see him as the real life Ryu (Street Fighter 2). I think the whole "machida karate" thing is a savvy marketing idea that happened accidentally. Lyoto was a shotokan karate guy. He has had training in many other styles, even sumo, but his striking base had always been shotokan. Of course, you can't compete in MMA by sticking to your style. No one uses pure boxing in MMA, or pure Muay thai, not even pure BJJ. Everybody adapts their boxing/muay thai/BJJ /wrestling to compete in MMA, and karate is no exception - lyoto adapted his shotokan to compete in MMA. When he won the championship he was super excited and told to the mic "karate is back!! Machida karate!!", meaning, his family's karate, I don't think he meant it was a separate style or anything like that. The term stuck and now people thinks there's a Machida karate, sort of like there is a kyokushin, a goju ryu, etc. If that were the case we'd have a Shogun Rua Muay Thai, a Randy Couture Wrestling, a Brock Lesnar wrestling, an Anderson Silva BJJ, etc, we'd have more styles than letters in the alphaber for each art. Just my 2 cents

karateforums can now have a beer! Congrats guys

Says who? Don't let anyone tell you how to do something that you love, especially when you already have all this experience. I self-trained with videos and books when I was looking to get back into karate with a dojo. It helped me finish up the curriculum that my teacher had when he stopped teaching. I also would do some research into books. Blackbeltwiki could be a resource, but it's a shot in the dark as to whether the Shito-Ryu kata videos on there are the ones that you would have practiced or from some branch that wasn't yours. Oh, I didn't know about black belt wiki, this is great, thanks!!!

I find this subject tough. Beneficial in what way? Exercise in general has a series of benefits for the body and mind, and kata counts as exercise too, for which kata is beneficial in the same way that running or jogging or doing calisthenics is beneficial. Is it beneficial for your karate proficiency? Well, karate is judged in part regarding how clean and crisp technique is, and kata will help you achieve that. Kata will also give you the muscle memory to correctly perform the different stances, strikes, blocks and movements that comprise karate. Kata is also beneficial to karate in the sense that it's a living history book of where karate comes from and its tradition and lineage. If you join a karate school and it has katas with names like "angry tiger" and "screaming eagle" and they have no idea what pinan sandan/heian sandan or empi are, is it really a karate school? It'd be a red flag for sure. However, is kata beneficial for fighting? I can't say yes. It's not detrimental, but I don't feel it's a training method geared for fighting or sparring. You fight how you train, and you train how you fight, and no one will fight or spar doing a neko ashi dache shuto uke followed by a zenkutsu dachi oi tsuki with the opposite arm on hikite. That's just not a thing. Can you imagine doing tsuki strikes from shiko/kiba dachi in a fight or sparring situation? Sure, there are practical applications and bunkai, but those are yet another training method, and not solo practice.

Hi there! You know my story: got a 2nd degree brown belt in shito-ryu karate, quit when I was 18, then didn't do any martial arts until a good 20 years later, got a belt in some mcdojo style of kempo (it wasn't a mcdojo until I had my brown belt, but by then I felt I was too far along to quit so I decided to get my shodan anyway), and I was also doing some muay thai. Then COVID hit and I stopped all my training. You'd have thought COVID would be over by now, but here we are. I really don't want to risk going into a closed space where a bunch of people will be within handshake distance of each other and exhaling, so going back to any dojo or MMA gym is a no-no for the time being. I still feel the itch of practicing martial arts, and since I am really disappointed in the kempo stuff (did I mention they change their "kata" every couple months as the instructors see fit? lol), I decided I want to try to train shito ryu again, only this time by myself. I know self-training is far from ideal, and that it doesn't count officially. But I already have the background (brown belt, after all) and I just want to stay active and remember the kata I once used to know. How can I go about this? I'd like some sort of guide to re-learn the shito ryu curriculum.

IMO Iaido, unlike most other martial arts, is uniquely well suited for solo practice. Why? It's mostly katas. There's no sparring, no partner drills, and no interaction with others. IMO you'd still need to get taught first (since you won't have the eye for knowing what to look for in your technique, e.g. "I didn't know I was slashing with the wrong angle"), but you can do so much more solo work with iaido than you'd do in karate or judo

let's see. I quit karate a long time ago even though I was 1 belt away from shodan because the instructors were very political (dojo politics, I mean): they heavily favored some students (and it wasn't even based on talent, it was based on who they liked or disliked personally) and they forced students to go to many tournaments, many of them out of state or even in other countries, and they conditioned belt tests on assistance to said tournaments (of course, that meant more money for the school!) I quit kempo a few years ago because the dojo used to be a little bit of a mcdojo but then they decided to become a MASSIVE mcdojo right around the time I got my brown belt (I did get my shodan, though). The dojo politics were even worse (is this a trend?!), then after they embraced mcdojo status they began having kids and overweight middle aged people with a few months' worth of experience teach classes as "assistant instructors" or "associate instructors" all by themselves. I was about to leave, then COVID happened and it made the decision easier for me. Then around the same time I quit Muay Thai because of COVID. My instructor was AMAZING and I had such a great experience learning from him, but I didn't want to risk getting COVID. I may come back to Muay Thai someday if he's still around, he was great instructor and I greatly enjoyed this art as well.

Some additional thoughts, some styles of sparring or non-sparring contact do not necessarily teach people what it takes to defend oneself, or even enforce bad habits. Picture those karate schools that have point sparring and nothing else, or WTF taekwondo style olympic sparring, or styles like aikido where a would-be attacker comes foward with a pre-arranged attack and depending on the style even waits for the counter-attack and plays along with it. Can this help anyone fighting? I think it may even enforce bad habits in some cases. the kempo place I quit made a huge emphasis on having the uke come rrrreeeaaallllll clooosseeeee to hitting the tori in the face, like, an inch or less, full strength, pulling the punch at the last second. Special emphasis was made on having the tori avoid flinching or moving, they are supposed to wait for the punch, like statues. That was great for developing control on the uke side, but, is this a bad habit for the tori to have? If I see a fist coming at my face full force, i want to train myself to react so i can stop it or move my head out of the way. training over and over how to keep my face still and not flinch because "I am so tough" won't save me in a fight...

In my opinion, there are martial arts and then there is fighting. Many, of not most martial arts imply fighting, but not always. The other side of the coin, not all fighting is a martial art. Picture a very classical kung fu practice where you learn very elaborate traditional forms and you can do amazingly difficult stances and strike (the air, that is) with power and crisp movements. Imagine this practitioner knows and perpetuates the knowledge of ancient kung fu forms that may be otherwise lost to time, and he also breaks boards and whatever, but no sparring, ever. In my opinion, this hypothetical person would be a martial artist, but not a fighter. In the polar opposite, picture a street brawler, someone like Kimbo Slice (RIP). He was a true fighter, 100%. He was so tough, he could probably beat many true martial artists, even ones who actually spar full contact. But was he a martial artist? Not really, no, at least not until he tried to get into MMA. There are plenty of non-contact martial arts out there, such as aikido, some forms of shorinji kempo, tai chi, etc. Are these complete martial arts? Quite the opposite. Are they even remotely sufficient for self defense? Not at all. Are they martial arts? Well... maybe not tai chi anymore, but something such as no-sparring wing chun, absolutely, in my opinion.

I have witnesses something pretty bad myself. I used to practice traditional karate, then quit and many years later I joined a "kempo karate" (so basically, Americanized Karate) school because it was close to my home and I craved getting back into the martial arts. It was certainly different from your average shotokan or goju ryu or shito ryu class, but it was still fun and had some applicability to it, so I decided to stick with it. For the first 3 years it was ok. After my 3rd year there, things began deteriorating horribly. 1) First the separation between adults class and kids class began blurring. Sure, having a 19 or 18 year old in class was fine. But then there were a couple 16 year olds in class. Next thing you know there is a 14 year old in class, under the justification that "he is a brown belt so he is too advanced for the kids class". Then there was a 10 year old. This should have been enough to make me leave, but I didn't see the red flag and stayed. 2) Then they implemented a very dishonest business model These american karate schools have an odd system. You get the regular class ("group class") and then you get one "private lesson" per week included in your monthly fee. "This is awesome!" I thought to myself, I get to have private instruction too! My mind raced with the possibilities, this is going to be a Daniel San and Mr. Miyagi sort of thing!!! Truth is, the "private class" model is actually a detriment to instruction. They get to charge you more because of these private lessons, which would not be an issue if you actually got them as an "extra". But the private lessons became the perfect excuse to have subpar "group classes". You see, at this school, all of your rank material, be it kata, ippon kumite drills, etc, they are all taught during your private lesson. You're learning all of your rank material during those once-a-week lessons. That frees the "group class" for aiming at the lowest common denominator: Calisthenics, practicing punches from the horse stance and the ocassional kick shield drill. That's it. No kata learning, no ippon kumite drill learning, no rank learning at all. This way they can group all kids in one class, regardless of rank, and all adults in another class, regardless of rank. Lazy, isn't it? But this is not what made the model dishonest. What made it dishonest after my 3rd year? See point # 3, "the teaching corps"! 3) The teaching corps. The group class model was bad enough. But not bad enough to get me to quit. At least I did have the full attention of my sensei for one class a week, right? Enter the teaching corps. What are the teaching corps? Free labor! The school began offering these "special elite instructor courses" (I changed the name slightly just to make it less obvious what school I am talking about) to all students. All you have to do to be eligible to take these courses is... to pay a hefty fee. ca-ching! $$$ Pay for 4 "elite courses", teach kids' private lessons (for free) and you will earn yourself a fancy "assistant instructor" belt. This belt looks almost exactly like a junior black belt, but with the colors inverted. You will be referred to as "sempai" or "assistant instructor". This is where the dishonesty kicks in: You can be a yellow belt for all they care. If you go to 4 of these courses and keep the kids busy with playing "ninja ball" or other games like that, you get to be some sort of instructor. What are these kids learning?!?! Then if you teach enough kids' classes and pay for more of the same "elite courses" (not even different ones, the same ones all over again), you will get a red belt and get to be called "associate instructor". Now you can teach rank material to kids and adults alike. You're basically a sensei, only without the name and without the pay. This is where the dishonesty really gets overwhelming. Imagine having junior ranks (we're not talking about brown or even blue or green belts here) get called instructor and teach kids and adults their rank material, during the much-hyped private lessons, with as per # 2 above, are the only chance you get for getting taught your kata and other material like that. 4) The dojo politics Who in their right mind would pay hefty sums of money in order to work for free for a dojo, without getting to learn anything (no, you won't get taught anything extra or get any sort of spiritual, mental, technical or physical benefit in exchange for spending several hours a week playing ninja ball with the kids or teaching a grown up an erroneous version of pinan nidan that you just learned yourself last week) and presenting yourself as an "associate instructor" with a fancy red belt that looks like the belt a a 10th dan okinawan karate master would wear? The students that ended joining this horrible program were for some reason the bottom of the barrel of the class. the lowest skilled students that also happened to be power hungry and prone to gossip. In other words, the people who had no business teaching anything. Their newfound "teaching corps" status led them to form a clique. This clique resented any students that they didn't like personally or that were more skilled, in a Mean Girls kind of way. Soon these "teaching corps" people began suggesting the sensei that some students should get kicked out because they "brought down the vibe" of the classes or "were mean people" (these people actually managed to brand as "mean" some of the kindest people I have met). The sensei didn't go as far as to ban these students who were targeted by the teaching corps, but the whole atmosphere was poisoned. 5) The teaching corps and politics had an effect on the student body and rank material Who has the time and energy to deal with a bunch of childish, gossipy overgrown children who feel that they're bruce lee? The good students began leaving the dojo on their own accord. Many joined BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai and Boxing schools, many quit martial arts forever. On my last year there, the student body was overpopulated with children, incredibly unskilled and out of shape adults and "the teaching corps", who now look like they're actually skilled because they were successful in running out most people who were better than them. This had an effect on the teaching. We stopped sparring forever ("if you want to spar, come to our specialized sparring class that's held every Sunday, that's it"), the instructor demanded that we stopped wearing our belts during sparring (he never gave a good reason, but in reality it was to save two particularly bad "associate instructors" from embarrassment when they get schooled by white belts) and kick shield practice became more rare because some teaching corp members didn't like to feel the impact of kicks on their body through the kick shields (!!!). By this time I was very conflicted and thought about leaving this horrible place for good. I made several posts here and a topic about it, and asked my fellow martial artists here for advice. In the end I didn't need to make such a decision, COVID happened, then I took some video lessons, and when I was ready to come back to the dojo my sensei told me he would no longer be teaching me. My grown man Shodan self would have to be taught by a 19 year old "associate instructor" who was actually a brown belt (not even a 2nd degree brown belt) or a middle aged former child daycare employee who also became an "associate instructor" recently and who was a brown belt too. At that moment I chose to quit. Later on I learned this sensei was actually still teaching some private lessons, so he lied to me too. Good riddance. Good lord, I guess its human nature and not the art itself but the culture that surrounds it. I hear you on the cliquey aspect. This is why I am beyond grateful at the Korean Karate Dojo/Dojang. Its a very lowkey place and the private lessons are incredible. The teacher goes beyond the clock and sometimes an hour session turns in to two hour and its free of charge. They tell me that I inspire them and I have tried to pay them extra because I feel bad but they never take my money. Yet they charge 20 percent less. After experiencing the boxing place I was in to as well as reading your experience, I have greater levels of gratitude for the style, teacher and school that I am currently part of. I truly am grateful for having a legendary Korean Karate master on my side. What I learned from honorable dojos and dojangs is that, karate or martial arts shouldn't just be about making money but also making an impact! I understand making money is very important but I would not want to sacrifice quality for commerce. That and I want to promote and reward students who are dedicated and not just talented. This creates a healthier culture within the dojo/dojang. Sorry you had to go through that. I am really happy you made this topic, writing all that was quite cathartic for me I am very curious about your style. Is it tang soo do? I have seen tang soo do, taekwondo and moo duk kwan as referred to as korean karate. I have always had a scholarly side to my interest in martial arts, and I fondly recall a book I read in my childhood called "Korean Karate: The Art of Tae Kwon Do" by Duk Sung Son too.

I have witnesses something pretty bad myself. I used to practice traditional karate, then quit and many years later I joined a "kempo karate" (so basically, Americanized Karate) school because it was close to my home and I craved getting back into the martial arts. It was certainly different from your average shotokan or goju ryu or shito ryu class, but it was still fun and had some applicability to it, so I decided to stick with it. For the first 3 years it was ok. After my 3rd year there, things began deteriorating horribly. 1) First the separation between adults class and kids class began blurring. Sure, having a 19 or 18 year old in class was fine. But then there were a couple 16 year olds in class. Next thing you know there is a 14 year old in class, under the justification that "he is a brown belt so he is too advanced for the kids class". Then there was a 10 year old. This should have been enough to make me leave, but I didn't see the red flag and stayed. 2) Then they implemented a very dishonest business model These american karate schools have an odd system. You get the regular class ("group class") and then you get one "private lesson" per week included in your monthly fee. "This is awesome!" I thought to myself, I get to have private instruction too! My mind raced with the possibilities, this is going to be a Daniel San and Mr. Miyagi sort of thing!!! Truth is, the "private class" model is actually a detriment to instruction. They get to charge you more because of these private lessons, which would not be an issue if you actually got them as an "extra". But the private lessons became the perfect excuse to have subpar "group classes". You see, at this school, all of your rank material, be it kata, ippon kumite drills, etc, they are all taught during your private lesson. You're learning all of your rank material during those once-a-week lessons. That frees the "group class" for aiming at the lowest common denominator: Calisthenics, practicing punches from the horse stance and the ocassional kick shield drill. That's it. No kata learning, no ippon kumite drill learning, no rank learning at all. This way they can group all kids in one class, regardless of rank, and all adults in another class, regardless of rank. Lazy, isn't it? But this is not what made the model dishonest. What made it dishonest after my 3rd year? See point # 3, "the teaching corps"! 3) The teaching corps. The group class model was bad enough. But not bad enough to get me to quit. At least I did have the full attention of my sensei for one class a week, right? Enter the teaching corps. What are the teaching corps? Free labor! The school began offering these "special elite instructor courses" (I changed the name slightly just to make it less obvious what school I am talking about) to all students. All you have to do to be eligible to take these courses is... to pay a hefty fee. ca-ching! $$$ Pay for 4 "elite courses", teach kids' private lessons (for free) and you will earn yourself a fancy "assistant instructor" belt. This belt looks almost exactly like a junior black belt, but with the colors inverted. You will be referred to as "sempai" or "assistant instructor". This is where the dishonesty kicks in: You can be a yellow belt for all they care. If you go to 4 of these courses and keep the kids busy with playing "ninja ball" or other games like that, you get to be some sort of instructor. What are these kids learning?!?! Then if you teach enough kids' classes and pay for more of the same "elite courses" (not even different ones, the same ones all over again), you will get a red belt and get to be called "associate instructor". Now you can teach rank material to kids and adults alike. You're basically a sensei, only without the name and without the pay. This is where the dishonesty really gets overwhelming. Imagine having junior ranks (we're not talking about brown or even blue or green belts here) get called instructor and teach kids and adults their rank material, during the much-hyped private lessons, with as per # 2 above, are the only chance you get for getting taught your kata and other material like that. 4) The dojo politics Who in their right mind would pay hefty sums of money in order to work for free for a dojo, without getting to learn anything (no, you won't get taught anything extra or get any sort of spiritual, mental, technical or physical benefit in exchange for spending several hours a week playing ninja ball with the kids or teaching a grown up an erroneous version of pinan nidan that you just learned yourself last week) and presenting yourself as an "associate instructor" with a fancy red belt that looks like the belt a a 10th dan okinawan karate master would wear? The students that ended joining this horrible program were for some reason the bottom of the barrel of the class. the lowest skilled students that also happened to be power hungry and prone to gossip. In other words, the people who had no business teaching anything. Their newfound "teaching corps" status led them to form a clique. This clique resented any students that they didn't like personally or that were more skilled, in a Mean Girls kind of way. Soon these "teaching corps" people began suggesting the sensei that some students should get kicked out because they "brought down the vibe" of the classes or "were mean people" (these people actually managed to brand as "mean" some of the kindest people I have met). The sensei didn't go as far as to ban these students who were targeted by the teaching corps, but the whole atmosphere was poisoned. 5) The teaching corps and politics had an effect on the student body and rank material Who has the time and energy to deal with a bunch of childish, gossipy overgrown children who feel that they're bruce lee? The good students began leaving the dojo on their own accord. Many joined BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai and Boxing schools, many quit martial arts forever. On my last year there, the student body was overpopulated with children, incredibly unskilled and out of shape adults and "the teaching corps", who now look like they're actually skilled because they were successful in running out most people who were better than them. This had an effect on the teaching. We stopped sparring forever ("if you want to spar, come to our specialized sparring class that's held every Sunday, that's it"), the instructor demanded that we stopped wearing our belts during sparring (he never gave a good reason, but in reality it was to save two particularly bad "associate instructors" from embarrassment when they get schooled by white belts) and kick shield practice became more rare because some teaching corp members didn't like to feel the impact of kicks on their body through the kick shields (!!!). By this time I was very conflicted and thought about leaving this horrible place for good. I made several posts here and a topic about it, and asked my fellow martial artists here for advice. In the end I didn't need to make such a decision, COVID happened, then I took some video lessons, and when I was ready to come back to the dojo my sensei told me he would no longer be teaching me. My grown man Shodan self would have to be taught by a 19 year old "associate instructor" who was actually a brown belt (not even a 2nd degree brown belt) or a middle aged former child daycare employee who also became an "associate instructor" recently and who was a brown belt too. At that moment I chose to quit. Later on I learned this sensei was actually still teaching some private lessons, so he lied to me too. Good riddance.